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on this episode of skeptico

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how to save someone's life in the

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emergency room

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they still can't stop the bleeding

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she is in and out of consciousness

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exactly four minutes in dr gandhi

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reaches for the black phone that's the

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direct link to the or

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and how to do it with no hands

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for example to a lady in ventricular

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tachycardia potentially lethal heart

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arrhythmia where the nurse is off to get

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the medicine i'm sitting there i got

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nothing to do

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get rapport with her breathe with her

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and say and you know

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your heart has been beating in a regular

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way for a long

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long time and she'd nod

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and it still knows how to

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that first clip was from a news report

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in fort worth i think i just pulled it

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off of youtube but the second one was

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from today's guest quite amazing guest

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dr steve biermann who joined me to talk

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about hypnosis nlp

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and a bunch of other cool stuff

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hope you enjoy the interview

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers

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and their critics i'm your host alex

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sacaris and wow

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we have a good one for you today

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i'm joined by dr steve biermann steve is

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the author of healing beyond pills and

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potions

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let me read a little bit from the

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website the website by the way you're

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going to want to check it out

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here is some bio stuff

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steve biermann md received his

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undergraduate ucla doctorate

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northwestern worked 20 years board

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certified emergency physician at scripps

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memorial encinitas right up the road

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from where uh steve and i are both

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sitting right now he's the founder of

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two medical device companies and holds

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over 200 utility patents on various

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medical devices

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as an emergency physician dr biermann

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became renowned

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for performing painless procedures like

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simple injections laceration repairs and

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even childbirth but his studied words

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and gestures did far more than prevent

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pain they also produced astonishing

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physical outcomes as dr berman went

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further along the

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communication continuum that's a very

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interesting

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there's going to be some very

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interesting reframing of a language here

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that that will will just blow your mind

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when you really get into what this guy

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has done to first stall autoimmune

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diseases shrink deadly tremors relieve

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depression and ensure bloodless

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surgeries many of his cures seem like

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miracles yes they really do and yet dr

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behrman explains they are inevitable

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consequence of a new

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and expanded understanding of disease

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causality and the focused power of ideas

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to access our healer

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within steve welcome thanks so much for

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joining me

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it's a pleasure alex good to see you

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again

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well you know i was thinking about how

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to kick this off

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and then i thought of

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this story that i heard from you

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that

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i'm sure it's told many times many

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different ways but

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steve imagine it's a few years ago

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i unfortunately get in a car accident

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wind up being wheeled into

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scripps hospital encinitas

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and i'm fortunate enough

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to run into dr steve i have a different

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dislocated shoulder i got a big uh gouge

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in my leg and bleeding

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what happens now that is like

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mind-blowingly radically different than

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what people might expect

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the first thing that happens alex is

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you're going to get

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all the care that you would normally get

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from any allopathic physician in an

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emergency room

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that's going to happen there's nothing

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taken out

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but there are things added

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the first thing that i'll do

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is establish

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a hypnotic rapport with you that's not

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rapport

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used in the vernacular that means that

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i'll in a studied and subtle way that

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i'll begin in a sense imitating you i'll

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link up with your rhythms your breathing

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rhythm

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your vocal energy

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i'll begin to establish a unique

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relationship with you

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um not just for the purposes of comfort

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and warmth but because i'm going to use

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that relationship along with carefully

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selected words

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and the authority that's

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vested in me by virtue of being the one

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and only doc in that emergency room at

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the time i'll take all of that and use

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it to your advantage for example

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i published in the american journal of

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emergency medicine

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a series of cases including one where

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the dislocated shoulder you're talking

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about

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was reduced by me that means returned

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returned to its normal anatomic position

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without any yanking or pulling or

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stretching or bending

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rather just words

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just words

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and those words don't entail necessarily

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a hypnotic trance

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but they rather through the relationship

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i've already developed with the rapport

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and careful choice of words and my

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authority

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they persuade your body to relax

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the muscles that are holding that

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dislocation in place let go

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and there's a natural tendency for the

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shoulder to roll back in i may offer a

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metaphor or two like a bowling ball

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rolling into the pocket something like

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that

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but i assure you whatever i do

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there'll be less trauma to your shoulder

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and it'll be instantly instantly meaning

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within minutes

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return to its anatomic position

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if you're bleeding and i did this in

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different ways every night

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i'll offer you

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strong suggestions

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that stop bleeding

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uh and they may be very direct

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i had patients every evening come in

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with cuts on their fingers you know from

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washing or drying dishes and they have

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arterial

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hemorrhage going on it's been going on

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for an hour before they got there

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but i'd be quite busy and i wouldn't

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have time to get to a finger laceration

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i would have time to go up to them and

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say

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hi i'm dr biermann i can see you were

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distressed were meaning it's now past

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tense probably you bled a lot

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i'm going to ask you to do something

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that's really important and might seem a

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little uh funny so now i have their

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attention right

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in the meantime i'm breathing with them

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i'm locking in with their posture in

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various movements

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but i've got their full attention

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because what is this emergency doctor

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going to say that's funny while i'm here

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hemorrhaging watching all hell break

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loose around me

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and then i'll look at them and take a

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breath and time it with their breathing

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and i'll say

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stop your bleeding

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now

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and i'll exude this kind of earnestness

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so they know i know it can happen and i

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expect that it will

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and this thing that's been bleeding for

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hours prior to or if you come in from an

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auto accident within four five six beats

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will stop bleeding as it did hundreds

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and hundreds of times night after night

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that's the power that's the impact of

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ideas on health and healing

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i love that i i want to say that

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you're just capturing the magic in the

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last minute and i kind of feel like

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you're holding on to the reins because i

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feel like you have to hold on to the

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reins a lot what you've discovered is

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amazing the way you've discovered it is

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very it's not mainstream but it's not

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like you've gone out and done you know

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bandler grinder kind of we got it uh

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ericsson famous hypnotherapist

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we got it you've studied all these

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people you've done it clinically but the

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net result of all this is magic i mean

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when you like the part that i liked when

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you first told me that story was

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you got that kind of physicians

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impatience and urgency for just a second

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and you're like no i could go up to

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people and instantly make them stop

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bleeding i could go up to people and

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touch them on the shoulder and their the

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joint would go back in their socket and

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i know now from reading the book that

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that is true and like you said

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not like true once or twice like

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thousands of times thousands of patients

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that you treated so

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there is something here that is

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kind of beyond

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what we like to kind of write and put in

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a nice little box and oh yeah that's

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great and he's got some

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kind of uh hypno hypnotic suggestions

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that kind of boost this thing

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there's something going on here that

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you're seeing that and you're doing that

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is that we're really going to want to

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get into but

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tell me you know tell me am i off there

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or not

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you're not off at all you're you're

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actually recognizing what many many

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people uh miss and it's not just one

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thing that's going on but it's a

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complex interaction of multiple things

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that are going on

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and um

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let's look at them

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if we can individually the first

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the thing that uh

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as you say i've seen

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these wonders happen thousands and

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thousands of times i'm always surprised

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by them yeah i still as you know keep an

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office in del mar do medical

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hypnotherapy for patients with both

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physical and psychological ailments and

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i see wonders happen

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literally every day just stunned

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and and here's the one thing that uh

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continually jumps out at me

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what i'm doing is i'm somehow

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eliciting or conjuring or evoking

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a healing response

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that resides the capacity for which

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resides in the patient

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they have this

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we don't know it we're not taught it in

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fact our culture often dissuades us from

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believing it

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but inside each and every one of those

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patients there's this intrinsic healing

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capacity you hear people talk about it

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the healer within this intrinsic appeal

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healing

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capacity that does

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marvelous wondrous things

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uh it from from shrinking tumors

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to

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allowing

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bloodless surgeries i'm not talking

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about minor surgery by the way i'm

287
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:29,320
talking about

288
00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:32,480
hemicholectomies or knee replacements

289
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:35,200
done bloodless very hard to believe

290
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:37,680
until you until you see it but i've seen

291
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:40,800
it scores in scores of times now

292
00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:43,760
from from things like that to the little

293
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:46,079
things stopping a finger bleed which

294
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:49,600
really isn't little to that uh patient

295
00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:51,839
all of these uh

296
00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:54,000
wonders reside within

297
00:11:58,949 --> 00:11:55,120
you

298
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:58,959
and what i've learned studying from

299
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:00,320
grinder and

300
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:03,519
ericsson and my own applications and

301
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:05,680
innovations in the emergency room is

302
00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:07,760
simply how to turn that on

303
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:09,839
what triggers it

304
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:11,760
there's a side note to that though that

305
00:12:15,430 --> 00:12:13,519
i think is uh

306
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:15,440
equally important

307
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:17,839
if if i have this uh

308
00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:21,519
ability to say uh ignite

309
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:24,800
this intrinsic healing capacity then it

310
00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:27,680
turns out sadly i often have the ability

311
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:29,440
to extinguish that

312
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,320
uh

313
00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:32,560
intrinsic healing capacity in other

314
00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:34,959
words i have in if you'll

315
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:36,320
allow this

316
00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:40,560
the power to uh cure or curse

317
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:43,040
and i think everyone listening uh at

318
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:46,639
least most everyone listening knows that

319
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:48,320
when they feel

320
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:50,639
themselves helpless and dependent as

321
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:54,320
people or injured people usually do

322
00:12:59,190 --> 00:12:56,399
uh and they're in the company of an

323
00:13:01,509 --> 00:12:59,200
authority someone who has very little

324
00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:01,519
detectable doubt about how to deal with

325
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:04,560
this that's how we recognize authorities

326
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:06,959
well he seems certain about this he must

327
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:09,440
know what's right

328
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:11,839
that dynamic

329
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:14,959
empowers the authority

330
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:17,360
such that their words

331
00:13:22,310 --> 00:13:19,760
will actualize

332
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:22,320
their ideas will become that

333
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:24,800
patience if you will reality

334
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:25,760
and

335
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:28,000
not knowing that is a very dangerous

336
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:31,040
thing we see for example in uh

337
00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:34,320
randomized clinical uh trials which have

338
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:35,600
been going on

339
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:37,839
tens of thousands tens and tens of

340
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:41,360
thousands since uh 1949.

341
00:13:47,910 --> 00:13:45,440
we don't only see uh placebo effects

342
00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:47,920
which we should come back to and and

343
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:49,200
explain

344
00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:50,399
but we see

345
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:52,639
the opposite we see what are now called

346
00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:55,760
nocebo are negative effects

347
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:57,760
which tells you if you think about this

348
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:00,160
just just very briefly

349
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:03,120
it tells you that whatever that

350
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:05,120
authority says

351
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,399
will land and actualize

352
00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:10,800
so the burdens on him or her to say it

353
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:12,079
right

354
00:14:15,509 --> 00:14:13,440
you know

355
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:15,519
lest they cast a curse

356
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,720
and curses are being as you and i speak

357
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:19,680
alex

358
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:22,160
somebody in some office somewhere right

359
00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:22,959
now

360
00:14:28,389 --> 00:14:25,120
is getting a curse oh you have a chronic

361
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:28,399
disease oh at best you have two years to

362
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:31,279
live um oh well

363
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,040
there's really nothing more we can do

364
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:34,800
about it you'll have to go home and

365
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:38,000
tough it out etc those are all

366
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:40,720
curses that could just as easily be

367
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:42,399
flipped

368
00:14:46,389 --> 00:14:44,079
so that they ignite the intrinsic

369
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:46,399
healing capacity in that patient

370
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,320
and then we can watch and wait and see

371
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,320
what wonders occur

372
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:52,800
yeah that's such a such a great point

373
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:55,680
it's scary at this so scary one of the

374
00:14:58,949 --> 00:14:56,880
things that

375
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:58,959
i want to bring you to a story you tell

376
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:01,199
in the book healing beyond pills and

377
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:04,240
potions that is a wonderful story

378
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:06,320
because you're a healer you are very

379
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,079
compassionate person and we can tell

380
00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:10,240
that you've dedicated your life to

381
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:12,639
serving and helping other people truly

382
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:14,800
in in every sense of the word and you

383
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:16,880
tell a great story

384
00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:19,360
about a physician who you

385
00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:20,720
respect

386
00:15:25,829 --> 00:15:22,959
like a colleague

387
00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:25,839
and how he

388
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:27,440
curses a patient i thought it was such a

389
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:29,279
great story and especially because it

390
00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:31,680
doesn't have a super tragic outcome just

391
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:33,680
a little bit of a problem you know the

392
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:35,519
one i'm talking about right

393
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,600
well sure and i'll i'll tell it with

394
00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:39,360
some sort of uh

395
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:42,240
generic coding uh this guy

396
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:44,240
is one of the he's actually the best

397
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:47,519
surgeon uh that i've uh ever known a

398
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:50,560
vascular surgeon with uh tremendous uh

399
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:53,199
skills and a really good uh heart

400
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:57,199
um and i tell this story to emphasize

401
00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:00,320
my key starting point namely compassion

402
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:02,480
is not enough

403
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:04,639
it's it's not enough to be a

404
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:07,920
compassionate uh physician or authority

405
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,399
of any kind and sit there holding hands

406
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:13,199
with someone as you're both swept down

407
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:15,680
this drain of misery and mayhem that's

408
00:16:18,069 --> 00:16:17,279
that's not okay

409
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:18,079
um

410
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:20,160
compassion is useful

411
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:23,600
but in my view it should fuel this quest

412
00:16:29,749 --> 00:16:27,600
for uh wisdom and knowledge so that you

413
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:29,759
know when and how to say the right thing

414
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:32,399
at the right time to make your patients

415
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:35,920
better in this case i had a lady who's

416
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:38,720
uh who had thrown from her throwing a a

417
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,440
large clot into her right leg and the

418
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:43,759
leg was pulseless and

419
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:47,120
dying and extremely painful it's hard to

420
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:48,480
describe the

421
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:50,639
level of pain she was experiencing

422
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:52,320
there's an older woman somewhere in her

423
00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:55,759
late 70s early 80s and this wonderful

424
00:16:59,509 --> 00:16:57,920
surgeon lived only four minutes away he

425
00:17:01,670 --> 00:16:59,519
moved his house closer to the hospital

426
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,680
so he could get in quickly for

427
00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:04,079
emergencies like this this is how

428
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:06,079
kind-hearted this guy is

429
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:06,959
um

430
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:09,280
the uh operating

431
00:17:13,829 --> 00:17:11,679
room refused to open

432
00:17:15,429 --> 00:17:13,839
another room for this lady and they said

433
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:15,439
you know we're doing a hip right now

434
00:17:19,429 --> 00:17:17,760
we'll be done in 45 minutes you've gotta

435
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:19,439
you gotta wait we don't wanna spend in

436
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:22,319
essence the money on another crew

437
00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:25,760
and uh he became incensed of course

438
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:27,520
picked up the phone next to the lady's

439
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:30,559
bedside and said listen if you you don't

440
00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:33,120
get this gal darn crew in in the next

441
00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:35,520
five minutes this woman's gonna lose her

442
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,400
leg

443
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,480
and he slammed the phone down and walked

444
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:40,320
out

445
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:42,320
that was in clear hearing of the patient

446
00:17:45,909 --> 00:17:43,440
and so

447
00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:45,919
you can imagine any of us can i think

448
00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:47,440
the horror

449
00:17:51,789 --> 00:17:49,840
that she went through and the curse that

450
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:51,799
my colleague

451
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:53,360
unintentionally

452
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:56,160
with you know the best purposes in mind

453
00:18:00,390 --> 00:17:58,160
cast upon her

454
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,400
um he could just as easily have thrown

455
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,240
the phone down

456
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:04,240
put his hand on her

457
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:06,080
breathe gotten in report breathed with

458
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:06,799
her

459
00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:07,840
rhythm

460
00:18:12,789 --> 00:18:10,559
and said her name uh let's say was rose

461
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:12,799
and said you know rose

462
00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:14,720
sometimes i have to yell

463
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:17,120
to get their attention

464
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:20,400
i'm here we're going to save your life

465
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:22,640
this is going to be all right

466
00:18:26,830 --> 00:18:24,720
i need you to

467
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:26,840
just be

468
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:32,240
his hand on her shoulder he could have

469
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:34,480
reassured her tremendously

470
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,200
and instead of waking later that day

471
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:39,760
after he did by the way save her leg she

472
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:41,760
was beset with nightmares about losing

473
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:44,000
it instead of uh

474
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:46,640
being hag ridden over these nightmares

475
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:48,160
she could have slept peacefully and

476
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:50,160
known that it was a show to get people

477
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:52,720
into the or quicker these types of

478
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,679
things

479
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:55,679
happen every day

480
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,360
in hospitals and office practices

481
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:01,520
uh not not just in this country but

482
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:04,559
around the world and the the reason alex

483
00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:07,200
is uh much more fundamental than people

484
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:08,080
think

485
00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:11,360
it's not simply because doctors are not

486
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,240
taught

487
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:14,160
how to speak

488
00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:16,320
it's true they're not and we need to

489
00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:18,320
make what i call noetic medicine

490
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:21,440
medicine of the mind the centerpiece of

491
00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:24,000
physician education

492
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:26,480
but the problem really comes

493
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:27,600
from

494
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:30,799
the causal assumptions that underpin our

495
00:19:33,909 --> 00:19:32,000
science

496
00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:33,919
and this is what i think people miss you

497
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:35,679
know we have people out there saying

498
00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:38,640
well this medical system is broken you

499
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:41,200
know it's just it's it's a cracked egg

500
00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:44,799
and it's it's it's not it it has no life

501
00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:45,840
left

502
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:48,480
we need to change to a some people will

503
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:51,600
say to a prevention disease reversal

504
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:53,840
model or to a

505
00:19:59,350 --> 00:19:57,200
non-fever service capitated model or to

506
00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:59,360
a this or a that bottle

507
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:00,480
and

508
00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:03,760
the problem is if that's all you do

509
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:06,640
and you make no alterations in your

510
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:08,320
fundamental

511
00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:11,760
causal assumptions meaning what causes

512
00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:13,919
disease what causes

513
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:16,400
the return of health if you make no

514
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:18,799
change in those assumptions

515
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:21,280
what however you alter the model it will

516
00:20:27,029 --> 00:20:24,080
devolve to what we have now which is

517
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:27,039
eight minutes of patient no time to ask

518
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:29,520
the the right and proper questions

519
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:31,520
no time to care about something other

520
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:33,360
than the presenting

521
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:34,400
symptom

522
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:36,880
doctors returning home haggard after the

523
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:39,120
day is over only to go back and do it

524
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,480
all over again burnout is rife patients

525
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:45,120
suffer from burnout caregivers and on

526
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:47,360
and on it's going to be the same

527
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:48,960
and here's why

528
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:52,640
because the science doesn't include

529
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:54,080
any of that

530
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:56,559
it doesn't include your exhaustion it

531
00:21:02,230 --> 00:20:59,280
doesn't include my fears or wishes it

532
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:02,240
doesn't include that that patient's uh

533
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:04,480
dangerous identification or their wish

534
00:21:09,909 --> 00:21:07,200
to get out of work no matter what

535
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:09,919
or some condition response they acquired

536
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:11,840
uh like retreating into illness when

537
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:13,679
they were a little boy or little girl it

538
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,400
doesn't include any of these noetic or

539
00:21:22,230 --> 00:21:18,559
mental

540
00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:22,240
causes because in our science

541
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:24,559
no matter what people say sometimes

542
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:26,559
they'll give a polite nod to the word

543
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:27,600
stress

544
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:31,760
but in reality our science is about

545
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:36,320
stuff it's about things palpable

546
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:39,039
uh you know cells and tissues and

547
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:41,039
molecules and genes

548
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,240
and it has

549
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:44,640
no space available whatsoever

550
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:46,559
for what makes us human well you're

551
00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:49,200
touching on so many topics that we seem

552
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:52,000
to talk a lot about here on the show uh

553
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:53,600
you bring a different perspective on it

554
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:55,120
and i think there's so many angles that

555
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,720
i want to come at this from because it

556
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,400
is an interesting way

557
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:00,880
of exploring it you are so much a

558
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:03,520
caregiver steve and i always see that as

559
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:06,159
it comes through like in the book you

560
00:22:11,669 --> 00:22:09,600
are speaking to caregivers and you are

561
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,679
passionately saying gee can't we do

562
00:22:14,789 --> 00:22:13,520
better here this is better for you

563
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:14,799
you'll feel better this is better for

564
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:17,200
your patients that you care about here

565
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:19,120
are some little tweaks we need to make

566
00:22:24,789 --> 00:22:22,559
in your communication you know awesome i

567
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:24,799
get it but then at the same time you're

568
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:26,240
really touching on some much more

569
00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:28,880
fundamental issues about the structure

570
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:32,240
of science the structure of medicine the

571
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,559
assumptions that are being made that

572
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:36,400
just blows your head off as soon as you

573
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:38,799
get in there i want to interject a quote

574
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:40,320
that i loved from the book it's actually

575
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,159
a quote of a quote but it's a thomas

576
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:44,559
kuhn quote that i i hadn't heard before

577
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:47,679
discovery commences with the awareness

578
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:49,440
of anomaly

579
00:22:54,990 --> 00:22:52,480
the recognition that nature has somehow

580
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:55,000
violated the paradigm induced

581
00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:59,440
expectations that govern normal science

582
00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:00,320
uh

583
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:02,400
there is so much packed into that but

584
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:04,080
that's what i hear

585
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:07,600
you saying in kind of a polite way of

586
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:10,400
kind of nudging folks and saying

587
00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:12,960
maybe the paradigm isn't really working

588
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:16,320
100 here so with that i really wanted to

589
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:17,760
launch into

590
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:20,240
a little bit of a deeper dive into what

591
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:21,840
we're really talking about and again

592
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:23,600
check out uh let me just mention again

593
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:25,760
check out steve's website

594
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:28,480
because if you are at all kind of

595
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:30,320
intrigued by what we're talking about

596
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:32,720
the website really has quite a bit

597
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:34,480
you can normally read an excerpt but you

598
00:23:39,669 --> 00:23:36,480
can get a bunch of other stuff so

599
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:39,679
do check out healingbeyondpills.com

600
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:42,720
but i want to get back to this idea of

601
00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:45,120
what's wrong with our understanding of

602
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:46,480
hypnosis

603
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:48,480
because it's really interesting that you

604
00:23:54,149 --> 00:23:50,960
the take you have on it let me move to

605
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:54,159
that from uh the authoritarian uh

606
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:57,840
hypnotists prior to ericsson uh so we

607
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:00,159
can see what the contrast is and sort of

608
00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:02,960
tease out what the common elements are

609
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:05,919
and uh hopefully arrive together at a

610
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:08,240
really good understanding what hypnosis

611
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:10,320
is but also of what it's not which is

612
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,559
somehow uh at this point in time even

613
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,000
more important

614
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:16,080
so the um

615
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:17,440
the hypnotist

616
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:20,320
and hypnotherapist prior to erickson

617
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:23,279
relied almost exclusively on what i call

618
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:25,760
authority now i don't use that term as

619
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:26,720
uh

620
00:24:34,870 --> 00:24:32,559
on archaeology when i say the term

621
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:34,880
authority i'm referring to a biologic

622
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:37,200
authority meaning

623
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:41,520
in the same position as say a parent of

624
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:42,720
a helpless

625
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:45,200
utterly dependent newborn that's what i

626
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:46,880
mean by authority where there's a power

627
00:24:49,269 --> 00:24:48,400
gradient like that

628
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:49,279
and

629
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:54,880
uh is resurrected when the human

630
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:57,760
organism feels helpless and dependent it

631
00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:01,600
comes back but when that exists the not

632
00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:05,200
just the words actualized the reality

633
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:07,120
of the authority becomes the route

634
00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:09,279
reality of the patient or the subject or

635
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:10,480
the baby

636
00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:12,640
and that's kind of a hard concept for

637
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:15,760
people to really get because if you

638
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,080
think about it a baby's non-verbal and

639
00:25:22,950 --> 00:25:20,400
yet the download to that

640
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:22,960
child even in years one and two and

641
00:25:29,669 --> 00:25:25,919
three is extensive you learn value

642
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:29,679
systems and religious notions and uh

643
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:31,840
what's dangerous and safe and language

644
00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:34,000
and locomotion all these things get

645
00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:36,080
downloaded somehow

646
00:25:39,669 --> 00:25:38,480
uh into the psyche of a

647
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:39,679
child

648
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:43,440
even before the age of will and reason

649
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:47,679
and this is the pattern that resurrects

650
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:48,799
in the

651
00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:49,840
early

652
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:52,480
hypnosis literature so bernheim for

653
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:53,600
example

654
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:57,840
uh who was a great uh hypnotist doctor

655
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:59,200
um

656
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:01,919
in south of france centuries ago would

657
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,840
hold up his two fingers and command

658
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:05,679
sleep sleep

659
00:26:09,669 --> 00:26:07,840
he'd command it this is the key thing

660
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:09,679
for people to understand

661
00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:12,559
of a patient in a perfectly normal

662
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:14,400
waking state

663
00:26:20,149 --> 00:26:16,960
and they would shift from the waking

664
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:20,159
state into a stoma ballistic trance not

665
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:22,720
always be often right

666
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:24,480
and so the trance

667
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:27,039
uh looked like that was the magical

668
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:28,880
thing because after trance then he'd

669
00:26:33,669 --> 00:26:32,240
tell him uh you know heal and they'd

670
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,679
sometimes heal

671
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:35,840
and so that the everything was

672
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:38,000
attributed to the trance and what was

673
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:39,120
missed

674
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:43,200
is that he was commanding sleep or trans

675
00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:46,000
of a perfectly wide awake but helpless

676
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:47,279
and dependent

677
00:26:51,669 --> 00:26:49,919
on him patient

678
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:51,679
so bear that in mind when we get to

679
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:55,120
erickson uh you fast forward 150 years

680
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:56,080
or so

681
00:27:02,149 --> 00:26:59,679
and there's erickson a post-polio victim

682
00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:02,159
who didn't own a hospital

683
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:05,440
didn't have a commanding presence

684
00:27:09,430 --> 00:27:07,600
if he were to stand above a patient he'd

685
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:09,440
stand often with a

686
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:11,840
cane crouched

687
00:27:18,149 --> 00:27:15,200
he didn't have the kind of automatic

688
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:18,159
authority that could necessarily command

689
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:21,840
a somnambulistic trance and thereafter

690
00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:24,559
induce healing

691
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:26,400
instead what he had

692
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:29,840
was from his times with polio was in a

693
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:32,480
pre a deep deep appreciation

694
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:35,200
for language and for non-verbal

695
00:27:39,669 --> 00:27:36,799
communication

696
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:39,679
and he learned that if he could link

697
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:42,960
words to someone's experience

698
00:27:49,269 --> 00:27:45,279
like i'll do it with you right now

699
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,279
uh so here we are talking about hypnosis

700
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:51,440
and i imagine that some of the thoughts

701
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:53,840
register and others may perhaps go

702
00:27:58,389 --> 00:27:56,640
somewhere else

703
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:58,399
and there may be other things you're

704
00:28:02,470 --> 00:27:59,919
thinking of at the same time like

705
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:02,480
perhaps what question to ask next or

706
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:04,399
where is this going

707
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:05,840
what i'm doing is i'm carefully

708
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:08,480
structuring each sentence so that it's

709
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:11,440
it doesn't evoke resistance and it's

710
00:28:17,190 --> 00:28:14,880
somehow or other agreeable right he

711
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:17,200
learned that and then he learned to link

712
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:20,159
his words to certain behaviors and he

713
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,720
created a pattern a linkage pattern my

714
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:25,039
words equal your experience

715
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:27,360
and patterns tend to persist

716
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:29,760
so his next words would their next

717
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,399
experience and eventually as that

718
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:34,640
pattern became stronger and stronger he

719
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:37,279
could use that plus the imitative

720
00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:40,080
pattern of rapport where he's mimicking

721
00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:42,240
them breathing with them posturing with

722
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:43,039
them

723
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:45,600
he could use those patterns to induce a

724
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:47,440
trance because he didn't have

725
00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:50,000
bernheim's authority

726
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:51,039
steve

727
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:52,640
share the example that you do in the

728
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:54,320
book with the cigarette because i

729
00:28:57,909 --> 00:28:56,240
thought it was just

730
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:57,919
scary and that's what i want to get into

731
00:29:02,149 --> 00:28:59,760
next is the power

732
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,159
that exists here you know used for good

733
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:04,320
but maybe not all cases

734
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:05,840
well sure so

735
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:08,559
the the subject in this case is a young

736
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:11,120
lady who's smoking a cigarette

737
00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:13,840
and in in doing that of course she'll

738
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:15,520
hold the cigarette

739
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:18,000
she'll watch the smoke curl

740
00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:20,480
she'll bring it to her mouth she'll take

741
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:23,200
a draw she'll put it back down

742
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:24,559
and erickson

743
00:29:28,389 --> 00:29:26,720
being very astute in his observation

744
00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:28,399
skills

745
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:30,880
would say things like as she's bringing

746
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:32,080
it up

747
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:34,480
uh unconscious movements happen from

748
00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:36,240
time to time

749
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:38,960
or the unconscious is always there to

750
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:41,360
lift a hand to help

751
00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:46,870
the hand we know when we're listening to

752
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:49,279
someone we agree with the hand will rise

753
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:51,600
automatically and what he's doing is

754
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:54,880
he's tying he calls it conditioning

755
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:58,000
value he's linking his words to their

756
00:30:01,590 --> 00:29:59,360
experience

757
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:01,600
so that the pattern he's creating

758
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,320
becomes stronger and stronger until

759
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:06,960
ultimately he could say he could say

760
00:30:12,389 --> 00:30:09,440
something like and the next time that

761
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:12,399
hand rises who knows perhaps it won't

762
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,799
taste so good perhaps you won't even

763
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:16,720
want to taste that

764
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:20,480
so it he's cultivating a pattern that he

765
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,440
intends to use once it's strong enough

766
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:25,600
for some healing purpose

767
00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:28,240
and that's uh that that's

768
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:30,720
one really important aspect of the

769
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:32,320
modern hypnotic

770
00:30:37,029 --> 00:30:34,080
method

771
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:37,039
but it also if you think about it

772
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:40,159
it begs the question you know

773
00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:43,679
what's going on there what really is

774
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:44,480
right

775
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:49,120
for me just quickly i learned all this

776
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:51,600
stuff and like everyone i thought trans

777
00:30:55,669 --> 00:30:54,000
was hypnosis and hypnosis was and i'd go

778
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:55,679
in the emergency room and there were

779
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:57,360
shifts where i'd have six or eight or

780
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:00,640
ten people in various uh trances going

781
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:03,600
to have radiology or wherever right

782
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:05,760
feeling comfort and safe which was the

783
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:07,200
main thing

784
00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:09,360
as the emergency room became busier and

785
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:11,760
busier it was a solo one doctor er and

786
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:13,600
we were seeing toward the end you know

787
00:31:17,510 --> 00:31:16,240
1800 patients a month we were flying

788
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:17,520
mock speed

789
00:31:21,990 --> 00:31:19,200
i didn't have time even though i could

790
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:22,000
do it in 12 sentences i didn't have time

791
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:25,120
to do formal trance inductions but i

792
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:26,159
learned

793
00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:29,039
a b because you know necessity here was

794
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:31,440
the mother of invention i could dispense

795
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:33,760
with that i could use my linguistic

796
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,159
skills and say it in a way that did not

797
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:38,399
evoke resistance

798
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:41,760
but command results and so i'd say for

799
00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:44,960
example to a lady in ventricular

800
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:47,120
tachycardia potentially

801
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:50,000
lethal heart arrhythmia where the nurse

802
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:51,600
is off to get the medicine i'm sitting

803
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:53,760
there i got nothing to do

804
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:55,600
get rapport with her breathe with her

805
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:57,840
and say and you know

806
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:00,799
your heart has been beating in a regular

807
00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:02,880
way for a long

808
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:05,919
long time and she'd nod

809
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:08,960
and it still knows how to

810
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:10,799
do it

811
00:32:17,029 --> 00:32:12,840
and i'd emphasize that

812
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:17,039
return to normal sinus rhythm

813
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:18,480
and of course the first time i do

814
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:20,960
something like that

815
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:23,600
thankfully nobody's around no you know i

816
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:26,000
have no idea how this is going to go and

817
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:27,519
the nurse comes whisking back in the

818
00:32:32,549 --> 00:32:31,039
room syringe all loaded ready to go

819
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:32,559
and she goes look

820
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,480
and sure enough she's converted back to

821
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:36,480
normal sinus rhythm

822
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:37,919
and so

823
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:40,480
what it begins to hint at what i hope

824
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:44,399
you're you're starting to to savor is

825
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:46,000
wow we got this whole thing wrong for

826
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:47,440
300 years

827
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:49,840
hypnosis isn't trans

828
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:51,840
trance is a is a

829
00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:55,279
response it's a consequence of hypnosis

830
00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:56,960
it's an effect

831
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:59,440
that causes hypnosis

832
00:33:02,789 --> 00:33:00,240
right

833
00:33:05,909 --> 00:33:02,799
the cause is these

834
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:05,919
uh tremendously powerful patterns

835
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:09,120
linkage my words equal your experience

836
00:33:13,029 --> 00:33:10,480
rapport

837
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:13,039
i equal you my behavior my posture my

838
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:15,679
breathing and authority my reality

839
00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:18,000
equals your reality when you're helpless

840
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:20,159
and dependent that's a necessary

841
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:22,000
precondition

842
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:24,480
these things and conditioning they're so

843
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,760
powerful that they drive ideas to

844
00:33:31,669 --> 00:33:29,360
actualize

845
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:31,679
and that's what's going on sometimes the

846
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:33,760
idea is trance like when bernheim

847
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,159
commands trans but he could have said

848
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:38,559
stop bleeding or keep your own blood as

849
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:40,720
i prefer to say or he could have said

850
00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:42,240
just comfort

851
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:44,320
or any one of the uh just

852
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:46,799
the other things that we use to light

853
00:33:50,389 --> 00:33:48,799
the fire of their intrinsic healing

854
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:50,399
capacity

855
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:53,360
it's not plants it's not about

856
00:33:57,990 --> 00:33:56,480
ideas evoking responses

857
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:58,000
okay so

858
00:34:01,350 --> 00:33:59,279
grinder

859
00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:01,360
uh tell folks who

860
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:05,120
bandler and grinder famous for nlp

861
00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:07,519
uh down here where we live tony robbins

862
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:10,960
has made a huge fortune basically out of

863
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:12,480
copying those guys but he's up front

864
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:15,200
about it he says hey that's what i did

865
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:18,240
people are fascinated by nlp

866
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:20,079
they don't understand how it fits into

867
00:34:25,349 --> 00:34:23,040
this puzzle and they don't understand

868
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:25,359
none of us do the larger question that

869
00:34:30,310 --> 00:34:27,919
you blurted out that we're gonna kind of

870
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,320
poke around at the sides of is what the

871
00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:32,639
hell's going on here but to do it i

872
00:34:36,710 --> 00:34:35,200
think it helps to deconstruct it the way

873
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:36,720
that you did you know like

874
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:38,960
what did we think we knew about hypnosis

875
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:40,399
and what do we now think we know about

876
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:42,800
hypnosis what do we think we know about

877
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:45,200
neuro-linguistic programming how is that

878
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:47,359
shamanism then we'll talk about you know

879
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:49,200
you walking in the jungle and what you

880
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:51,040
think that means and all that but let's

881
00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:52,480
start with uh

882
00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:56,639
nlp and grinder well so uh john grinder

883
00:35:04,950 --> 00:34:59,760
of phd in linguistics and uh richard

884
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:04,960
bandler uh teamed up at uh uc santa cruz

885
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:07,839
and at the behest of uh

886
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:09,680
gregory bateson

887
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:12,000
went out and visited for quite some time

888
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:13,520
milton erickson

889
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:15,520
uh the most

890
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:17,680
renowned and i think in many ways most

891
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:20,320
successful medical hypnotherapist of his

892
00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:22,400
time of all time

893
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,079
um

894
00:35:29,349 --> 00:35:27,119
and their purpose was to understand what

895
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:29,359
the hell he was doing

896
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:31,280
because it was very

897
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:34,560
unclear very very blurred

898
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:36,960
people would sit down in the room

899
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:37,920
they'd

900
00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:39,599
go into a trance

901
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:41,040
sometimes

902
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:43,520
inexplicably

903
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:46,000
erickson would tell some stories

904
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:48,560
uh and they'd get up after a session or

905
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:50,960
two or five and

906
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:53,200
their problem was gone

907
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:57,200
and so the the question was

908
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:58,560
what the hell is going on here what's

909
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:00,320
this guy doing

910
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:03,040
and it turns out and i i this is my

911
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:05,440
assessment from reading erickson and

912
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:08,560
talking uh with uh grinder who i have to

913
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:11,040
say i think he's uh

914
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:12,880
he's the smartest guy i know and i feel

915
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:16,160
very uh blessed to be a friend of his uh

916
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:16,960
for

917
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:19,040
35 plus years now

918
00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:25,109
they wanted to tease out

919
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:27,440
what was making these things happen and

920
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:29,680
they were uniquely qualified to do that

921
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:32,320
they were bold and daring and john had

922
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:35,119
linguistic uh knowledge and and

923
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:36,960
categories and they could break things

924
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:39,680
out and see it whereas erickson as i was

925
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:42,079
saying uh was sort of operantly

926
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:45,599
conditioned by his own patients i'll try

927
00:36:51,670 --> 00:36:48,079
this if it works i'll do it again

928
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:51,680
and and he's getting like you know uh

929
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:54,400
many of us i'm subject to this too

930
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:55,520
certainly

931
00:37:00,069 --> 00:36:57,520
reinforcements he's not

932
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,079
quite aware of at a conscious level and

933
00:37:05,349 --> 00:37:02,640
the behaviors begin to repeat and so

934
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:05,359
he's got a repertoire of behaviors that

935
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:06,160
are

936
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:09,440
very difficult to explain consciously

937
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:11,200
and that's kind of where

938
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,839
they were in in my estimation

939
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:16,079
and what grinder and bandler did was

940
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:18,960
they said now we can tease a lot of this

941
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:24,000
apart and we can methodize what it is uh

942
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:26,400
this guy ericsson is doing

943
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:27,200
and

944
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:29,359
uh create

945
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:31,599
patterns that people can

946
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:32,880
utilize

947
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:34,640
for patient care

948
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:36,720
and uh that's

949
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:38,320
that was nlp

950
00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:40,560
not new code which is what john's

951
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,800
teaching now which has more to do with

952
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:44,640
creative states and things of that

953
00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:48,560
nature but these early patterns were

954
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:51,200
nlp patterns that you could teach almost

955
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:53,920
anyone if they had some level of

956
00:37:58,790 --> 00:37:55,920
linguistic skill to use for the

957
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:58,800
betterment of their uh patients and so

958
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:01,599
they could induce a trance but in the

959
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:03,920
because i had i had the perfect

960
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:06,480
laboratory right i mean i'm seeing 30 to

961
00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:10,400
60 patients a day and nobody's watching

962
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:13,440
and so i was able to go learn a pattern

963
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:17,040
uh learn an approach uh go in and try it

964
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:20,320
out make whatever mistakes correct and

965
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:22,400
eventually hone my my skills so that i

966
00:38:27,829 --> 00:38:25,680
could apply it to not only uh

967
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:27,839
psychiatric problems but also to real

968
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:30,240
physical problems and witness it working

969
00:38:35,109 --> 00:38:32,400
there every bit as well as it does for

970
00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:35,119
psychological issues hey steve can can i

971
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:36,880
interject with a question there how do

972
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:39,440
you understand this

973
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:42,000
method this is not like an egotistical

974
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:44,720
you know like here's the biermann method

975
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:46,880
that everyone it's nothing like that in

976
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:49,359
this book it's more like just hey can't

977
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:50,320
we

978
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:52,480
wisen up a little bit about this but i

979
00:38:58,470 --> 00:38:55,920
do get the sense that you have

980
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:58,480
some specific ideas about what you've

981
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,240
been able to figure out and what you've

982
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:02,480
been able to do in that setting and in

983
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:05,920
your clinical work as a hypnotherapist

984
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:08,560
what's your secret sauce

985
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:10,000
well i so

986
00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:12,160
there's two sides to this

987
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:15,359
table okay uh the one side is the ideas

988
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:17,119
of the doctor

989
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:19,920
uh or the authority and the other which

990
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:22,240
i think we'll come to are the ideas of

991
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:25,040
the patient how to deal with those

992
00:39:31,109 --> 00:39:27,040
uh in the first part of the book i talk

993
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:31,119
about how to convey our ideas to

994
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:34,720
patients and i use a lot of linguistic

995
00:39:39,670 --> 00:39:36,560
fine points that

996
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:39,680
bandler grinder actually pointed out

997
00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:42,720
that they extracted from erickson's

998
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,760
work

999
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:45,599
simple things like

1000
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:48,320
stated in the positive right

1001
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:50,720
understand the word try implies an

1002
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:53,920
obstruction so use it selectively like

1003
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:56,320
i'll say if i want someone to go into a

1004
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:59,839
trance uh try to stay out of a trance

1005
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:01,119
for just

1006
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:02,880
one more minute

1007
00:40:07,109 --> 00:40:05,119
because that implies an obstruction to

1008
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:07,119
that effort and they will go into trance

1009
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:09,440
they inevitably uh do one sentence

1010
00:40:11,589 --> 00:40:10,560
induction

1011
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:11,599
or

1012
00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:17,440
to get well and then watch them closely

1013
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:19,280
and see if they say

1014
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:21,040
yes i really do

1015
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,680
or yes i really want to quit smoking no

1016
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:25,520
they don't they've told you they don't

1017
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,680
now you have something to talk about

1018
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:29,760
these subtle linguistic things and there

1019
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:32,400
are many of them in the in the book

1020
00:40:37,510 --> 00:40:34,960
teach doctors that

1021
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:37,520
the the time of haphazard speech is done

1022
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:40,079
and passed you don't get a pass on a

1023
00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:42,960
single word make every word count

1024
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:44,640
and that seems like a really heavy

1025
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:46,240
burden to carry but

1026
00:40:49,589 --> 00:40:47,520
just like everything you develop

1027
00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:49,599
linguistic habits and it becomes really

1028
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:52,160
easy to speak right i think it's a

1029
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,240
really heavy burden to carry i love your

1030
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:57,359
attempt to teach health care workers

1031
00:41:02,630 --> 00:41:00,720
doing this i i'd love to know from your

1032
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:02,640
experience

1033
00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:05,200
how successful you are in helping people

1034
00:41:09,270 --> 00:41:07,040
move along this this path well i have a

1035
00:41:12,390 --> 00:41:09,280
lot of experience with that and i'm i'm

1036
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:12,400
happy uh to report that

1037
00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:13,680
if

1038
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:15,280
you take a

1039
00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:18,880
extensive three-day course with me say

1040
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:21,119
now the course i teach in europe every

1041
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:24,160
year it's ten hour days for three days

1042
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:26,560
with breakouts every hour or so

1043
00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:28,720
practicing various techniques let me

1044
00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:31,280
tell you what you learn in uh so what's

1045
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:33,359
that 30 hours

1046
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:36,240
you learn first that every word counts

1047
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,480
you learn how to get painless injections

1048
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:40,000
so so that

1049
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:42,000
kids aren't scared for the rest of their

1050
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:44,560
lives to go to the the doctor in fact

1051
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:46,160
they're fascinated by it how does it

1052
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:48,640
work you learned that greetings are your

1053
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:51,359
first opportunity to establish report

1054
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,640
that good buys are your last opportunity

1055
00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:57,119
in that visit to implant a therapeutic

1056
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:00,319
suggestion you learn to deliver dire

1057
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:04,160
diagnoses properly so you don't rob your

1058
00:42:08,309 --> 00:42:06,720
patients of hope give us an example

1059
00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:08,319
there's some great ones in the book give

1060
00:42:11,829 --> 00:42:09,760
us that's that's going to be

1061
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:11,839
life-changing for a lot of people well

1062
00:42:15,910 --> 00:42:13,280
here's a simple exam let's say it's

1063
00:42:19,510 --> 00:42:15,920
cancer okay and let's say that the

1064
00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:19,520
survival rate is 20

1065
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:22,079
okay and this goes to uh

1066
00:42:26,790 --> 00:42:24,800
uh i'll do the informed consent on this

1067
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:26,800
so this is the other thing people are

1068
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:29,520
going to learn again in the first 30

1069
00:42:33,589 --> 00:42:31,359
hours of training

1070
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:33,599
let me do it wrong first okay because

1071
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:35,359
this is what's happening right now while

1072
00:42:38,390 --> 00:42:37,520
you and i are talking some doctor is

1073
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,400
saying

1074
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:41,119
all right look uh i've got some bad news

1075
00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:42,160
for you

1076
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:43,040
um

1077
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:46,720
you have cancer and uh it's actually

1078
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:48,880
begun to spread which that's not good

1079
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:51,359
news either i'm sorry to say

1080
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:52,319
um

1081
00:43:01,030 --> 00:42:58,400
know eighty percent of people die from

1082
00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:01,040
this um but there's a 20

1083
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:03,440
possibility and we'll do everything we

1084
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:05,599
can we're going to try

1085
00:43:09,750 --> 00:43:08,000
to make that happen

1086
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:09,760
okay and you know the meaning of the

1087
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:11,359
word try there's it implies an

1088
00:43:15,829 --> 00:43:12,400
obstruction

1089
00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:15,839
that's a disaster and i'll tell you

1090
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:19,839
right now i don't have any doubt at all

1091
00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:22,160
that in that moment of utter

1092
00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:25,280
helplessness and dependency and of near

1093
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:28,640
absolute authority of the physician

1094
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:30,240
that those are

1095
00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:31,680
voodoo type

1096
00:43:36,630 --> 00:43:33,440
deadly curses

1097
00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:36,640
and they're happening every day okay

1098
00:43:41,670 --> 00:43:38,560
now here's all you need to know to do it

1099
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:41,680
right this is how simple it is okay

1100
00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:43,280
we're going to do this

1101
00:43:48,309 --> 00:43:45,119
we're going to

1102
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:48,319
understand there's a difference between

1103
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:49,200
you

1104
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:51,520
which linguists call a specific

1105
00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:54,800
referential index and some people others

1106
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:56,800
some patients them

1107
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:58,319
okay

1108
00:44:01,990 --> 00:44:00,800
and we're going to put

1109
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:02,000
risks

1110
00:44:06,069 --> 00:44:04,000
over there so my hand is going to go

1111
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:06,079
over there it's going to be some people

1112
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:09,920
others them patients right

1113
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,160
and then we're going to put benefits

1114
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:14,880
right here with you

1115
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:18,160
but unlike the doctor who i just uh

1116
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:20,640
pretended to be i'm going to actually

1117
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:23,599
deliver the statistical information

1118
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:25,760
truthfully that was a dishonest delivery

1119
00:44:31,349 --> 00:44:29,119
because statistics never tell anyone

1120
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:31,359
about any individual they tell you about

1121
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:33,680
the behavior within groups groups you

1122
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:36,400
may or may not even resemble

1123
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:37,200
right

1124
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,599
um so here's how that informed consent

1125
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:43,190
uh

1126
00:44:47,190 --> 00:44:44,400
before

1127
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:47,200
i tell you anything i want to tell you

1128
00:44:51,589 --> 00:44:49,440
the most important thing

1129
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:51,599
we need to know and share

1130
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:52,960
and that is

1131
00:44:57,829 --> 00:44:56,000
that miracles wonders positive outcomes

1132
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:57,839
whatever you want to call it

1133
00:45:01,109 --> 00:45:00,000
they happen every day and i see them

1134
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:01,119
every day

1135
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:02,880
and for all i know

1136
00:45:06,470 --> 00:45:04,720
you could be the next miracle i'm i'm

1137
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:06,480
looking at

1138
00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:07,359
now

1139
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:10,000
the news that we got and i'm saying that

1140
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:13,040
we got i'm creating an alliance the news

1141
00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:14,400
that we got

1142
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:16,640
is unfortunately not what we had hoped

1143
00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:17,440
for

1144
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:21,119
it is not you have it is

1145
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:22,160
cancer

1146
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:24,960
and it has begun to spread

1147
00:45:30,309 --> 00:45:28,560
and so together we need to take measures

1148
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:30,319
to stop the spread

1149
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:37,270
here's what i suggest we do

1150
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:39,359
okay

1151
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:41,280
let's say it's chemotherapy

1152
00:45:45,109 --> 00:45:43,040
i'm going to talk about that

1153
00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:45,119
now the risks are some people may have

1154
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:47,839
lower blood counts some people have

1155
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:51,760
nausea and vomiting others are at risk

1156
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:54,160
of infection some patients even have

1157
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:56,160
more uh

1158
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:00,000
dire adverse reactions and if they do

1159
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:02,960
not when but if if they do

1160
00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:05,520
we have the medicines and

1161
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:07,839
facilities to treat them

1162
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:09,839
on the other hand

1163
00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:11,839
there are many patients perhaps i'm

1164
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:14,160
saying perhaps to be honest perhaps just

1165
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:16,000
like you

1166
00:46:19,589 --> 00:46:18,000
who do quite well through this whole

1167
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:19,599
thing

1168
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:21,680
have a comfortable course

1169
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:24,480
and you go on to survive

1170
00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:26,319
and i wouldn't be a bit surprised if

1171
00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:28,160
when this all over you and i sit here

1172
00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:30,480
and realize that your chances of

1173
00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:33,200
survival in retrospect were a hundred

1174
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:34,480
percent

1175
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:36,960
then the patient will inevitably say but

1176
00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:39,520
what are my chances and this is the big

1177
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:41,760
moment this is the sort of

1178
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:42,960
truth tell

1179
00:46:46,470 --> 00:46:44,400
because

1180
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,480
if any doctors are listening you don't

1181
00:46:50,710 --> 00:46:48,480
know the answer to that

1182
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:50,720
and you can't know the answer that and i

1183
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:53,040
can prove it to everyone who's listening

1184
00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:55,040
just tell me what your tomorrow is going

1185
00:46:59,109 --> 00:46:57,280
to be live how's your health tomorrow

1186
00:47:01,349 --> 00:46:59,119
what are you going to be doing tomorrow

1187
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:01,359
at the end of tomorrow what will have

1188
00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:03,520
happened to you of course

1189
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:06,480
nobody can answer that so this

1190
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:09,280
as david deutsch who i uh

1191
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:10,640
love

1192
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:13,760
in his book the beginning of

1193
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,960
infinity

1194
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:16,000
says

1195
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:18,800
this is the fallacy of prophecy

1196
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:20,960
so when they ask you

1197
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:23,520
what are my chances there's only one

1198
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:26,400
answer to that and that is we won't know

1199
00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:27,440
until

1200
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:29,119
we're through this whole thing and

1201
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:31,520
hopefully you're well what i and then

1202
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:32,960
then they have to give the honest

1203
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:35,200
information what i can tell you and

1204
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:38,720
watch my hands now is that in a group of

1205
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:40,480
100 people

1206
00:47:44,230 --> 00:47:42,960
there are uh with this particular

1207
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:44,240
diagnosis

1208
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:47,040
80 out of those 100 people will not make

1209
00:47:50,069 --> 00:47:48,240
it

1210
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:50,079
and on the other hand for reasons we

1211
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:52,240
don't fully understand

1212
00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:55,119
20 out of those 100 perhaps as i say

1213
00:47:59,190 --> 00:47:56,720
very much like you

1214
00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:59,200
will survive i just said you will

1215
00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:01,359
survive and i underscored it with my

1216
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,160
eyes and my vocal energy

1217
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,000
that's a simple technique it's uh on the

1218
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:07,920
one hand and the other technique it's

1219
00:48:12,550 --> 00:48:10,480
them and you technique

1220
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:12,560
and and you get this

1221
00:48:18,790 --> 00:48:15,119
in the first 30 hours you even learn in

1222
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:18,800
30 hours how to do pre-surgical hypnosis

1223
00:48:23,109 --> 00:48:22,079
believe it or not and induce bloodless

1224
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:23,119
painless

1225
00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:26,559
rapid healing uh from uh surgery in in

1226
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:28,400
your patients you can learn that in

1227
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:30,079
three days you spend three or four more

1228
00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:31,920
days and you can learn the advanced

1229
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:34,319
techniques

1230
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:36,640
fantastic one thousand percent behind

1231
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:38,800
you in doing that

1232
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:41,040
i gotta ask do you run into resistance

1233
00:48:44,549 --> 00:48:42,800
and what is that resistance like i don't

1234
00:48:46,870 --> 00:48:44,559
know why anyone would resist but i'm

1235
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:46,880
sure you do what is that all about

1236
00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:49,280
well yeah of course i do so

1237
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:50,960
in the classes no because it's

1238
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:53,760
pre-selected group and it's skewed

1239
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:55,520
uh toward uh

1240
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,839
caregivers who care and who want to make

1241
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:59,359
a difference and who know they're not

1242
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:01,680
quite doing it right and they're willing

1243
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:04,319
to learn um

1244
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:06,319
it's i would say generally speaking

1245
00:49:10,069 --> 00:49:08,079
amongst uh

1246
00:49:11,349 --> 00:49:10,079
primary care doctors there's less

1247
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:11,359
resistance

1248
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:13,680
and the reason i believe is because in

1249
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:16,000
order to be a primary care doctor you

1250
00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:18,480
have to make peace with uncertainty

1251
00:49:23,349 --> 00:49:20,240
right you have to

1252
00:49:24,790 --> 00:49:23,359
get comfortable with saying i don't know

1253
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,800
right and to

1254
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:26,880
really understand the limits of your of

1255
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:28,240
your knowledge

1256
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:30,960
i think that people broadly speaking in

1257
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:33,280
medicine go into specialties so that

1258
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:37,040
they can get on top of their little hill

1259
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:38,319
and um

1260
00:49:43,030 --> 00:49:40,720
not have to experience the discomfort of

1261
00:49:44,549 --> 00:49:43,040
uncertainty and so once they're there

1262
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:44,559
once they're on the top of the hill

1263
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:47,520
looking out surveying their vast uh uh

1264
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:48,640
domain

1265
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:49,680
uh

1266
00:49:53,829 --> 00:49:51,520
they're gonna resist

1267
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:53,839
uh because remember the science that

1268
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:55,280
they're following

1269
00:50:00,150 --> 00:49:58,400
is the science of if if i can use this

1270
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:00,160
analogy it's the science of billiard

1271
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:03,440
falls right without realizing that that

1272
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,160
billiard ball is moving because someone

1273
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:08,240
had the idea to put it in the corner

1274
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:10,640
pocket

1275
00:50:15,270 --> 00:50:12,559
right and so those people quite

1276
00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:15,280
naturally resist and you read thomas

1277
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:18,640
kuhn and he's devoted an entire book

1278
00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:22,240
to this sort of reluctance to shift

1279
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:26,400
paradigms even in the face of glaring

1280
00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:28,240
anomalies

1281
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:30,640
steve tell us about

1282
00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:33,680
the trip to the shaman amazing story in

1283
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:35,680
the introduction to the book and it's

1284
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:37,440
going to kind of take us

1285
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:38,160
in

1286
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:53,440
early 40s

1287
00:50:57,030 --> 00:50:55,760
i had a ruptured

1288
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:57,040
disc

1289
00:51:00,390 --> 00:50:59,200
c5 on my left side it was tremendously

1290
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:00,400
painful

1291
00:51:06,150 --> 00:51:03,440
and made work almost impossible

1292
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:06,160
and my uh arm left arm was getting

1293
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:07,680
weaker and weaker i couldn't do a

1294
00:51:12,549 --> 00:51:10,800
push-up i could do a push-up one side

1295
00:51:13,349 --> 00:51:12,559
would get me up and the other side was

1296
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:13,359
down

1297
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:14,720
and so i did

1298
00:51:19,829 --> 00:51:16,800
what you might expect i went and talked

1299
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:19,839
to my uh surgical

1300
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:22,559
neurological colleagues and they said

1301
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:24,480
well yeah we can fix this it's really

1302
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:26,240
simple here's what we'll do

1303
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:28,240
we'll cut into your neck

1304
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:30,960
uh avoiding the carotid artery will

1305
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:33,280
spread things open we'll take a chunk

1306
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,480
out of your neck

1307
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:36,960
hammer pound a chunk of cadaver bone in

1308
00:51:39,670 --> 00:51:37,760
there

1309
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:39,680
to spread it open so you get more space

1310
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:41,119
for that nerve

1311
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:42,160
and

1312
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:43,920
you'll be fine

1313
00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:47,200
and that was a very unattractive uh

1314
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:48,720
option for me

1315
00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:50,480
at that time and of course

1316
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,559
it's even more unattractive now as i

1317
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:54,640
think about it what a nightmare

1318
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:55,680
um

1319
00:51:59,510 --> 00:51:57,119
so

1320
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,520
i it was a wonderful journey for a

1321
00:52:06,309 --> 00:52:02,240
physician i i learned so much through

1322
00:52:08,950 --> 00:52:06,319
that uh so i went to every imaginable uh

1323
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:08,960
alternative modality that you can think

1324
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:11,200
of and i i learned a lot from some

1325
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:13,119
really good people some feldenkrais

1326
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:16,160
people and and others about various

1327
00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:18,720
techniques but regrettably

1328
00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:20,640
those techniques

1329
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:21,680
or the

1330
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:23,839
severity of what i was dealing with

1331
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:25,359
were

1332
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:26,960
less than perfect

1333
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:28,000
and

1334
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:29,839
i kept reading you know i was reading

1335
00:52:34,069 --> 00:52:31,200
andrew weil

1336
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:34,079
uh i was reading uh i i read a book

1337
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:36,880
entitled the way of the shaman

1338
00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:38,480
and uh

1339
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:40,960
it talked about a little town in uh in

1340
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:44,000
southern ecuador marcus outside of which

1341
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:46,880
some tremendously powerful brujos exist

1342
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:49,920
ayewasquieros and they have amazing

1343
00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:51,359
healing capacity

1344
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:53,520
so i called up one of my doc buddies who

1345
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:57,200
spoke fluent uh spanish and i said

1346
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:59,440
hey ron we're not going on a surf trip

1347
00:53:02,309 --> 00:53:00,640
this month

1348
00:53:04,470 --> 00:53:02,319
he says well what are we doing i said

1349
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:04,480
we're going on a drug trip i had to

1350
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:06,400
disguise it somewhat

1351
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:09,040
what drug ayahuasca

1352
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:10,240
and so

1353
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:12,160
we went we went

1354
00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:14,800
to macas and we got

1355
00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:18,160
uh we paired up with a brujo in training

1356
00:53:21,109 --> 00:53:19,200
jose

1357
00:53:24,790 --> 00:53:21,119
drove to the end of the road out of the

1358
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:24,800
pasta province and mud walked our way uh

1359
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:27,280
hours and hours into the jungle and

1360
00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:29,359
ultimately arrived at an encampment

1361
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,319
where

1362
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:32,960
supposedly the most powerful brujo of

1363
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:35,359
the area

1364
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:37,680
was holding court

1365
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:43,510
it was it was what we had read about and

1366
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:46,480
what we were in our minds requiring as a

1367
00:53:49,510 --> 00:53:48,559
test but it was still stunning we got

1368
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:49,520
there

1369
00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:52,240
it was dark and the patients uh

1370
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:55,040
13 patients were in the room that day

1371
00:54:00,150 --> 00:53:57,200
and they were all saying what took you

1372
00:54:02,150 --> 00:54:00,160
what took you we've been waiting for you

1373
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:02,160
and it turned out two hours before we

1374
00:54:07,510 --> 00:54:04,480
arrived the shaman was lifting the

1375
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:07,520
ayahuasca to his uh lips and he said

1376
00:54:09,430 --> 00:54:08,240
well

1377
00:54:11,589 --> 00:54:09,440
hold on

1378
00:54:13,030 --> 00:54:11,599
two white men are coming i don't know

1379
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:13,040
maybe they want to buy a cow or

1380
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:14,000
something

1381
00:54:18,790 --> 00:54:16,400
and uh we're gonna wait for them

1382
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:18,800
uh so

1383
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:21,040
long story short we stayed there uh for

1384
00:54:25,829 --> 00:54:22,319
several days

1385
00:54:28,950 --> 00:54:25,839
i went through a healing ritual with him

1386
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:28,960
a typical shamanic ritual which i call

1387
00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:32,800
the second blow right so he's on the

1388
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:35,599
ayahuasca he identified i didn't tell

1389
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:37,920
him anything at all he had a little

1390
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:39,839
crystal he identified this part of my

1391
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:42,400
neck as where the problem was

1392
00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:46,319
and then he applied his lips uh wait he

1393
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,559
he blew on that

1394
00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:50,000
close up

1395
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:51,040
and the

1396
00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:54,960
the air instead of being the hot moist

1397
00:55:01,910 --> 00:54:57,839
uh tropical air of the amazon

1398
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:01,920
was this frigid art arctic almost like a

1399
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:04,000
bicycle going through you

1400
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:05,760
i could feel that

1401
00:55:09,829 --> 00:55:07,280
he looked again he wasn't quite

1402
00:55:11,829 --> 00:55:09,839
satisfied he did it one more time once

1403
00:55:14,230 --> 00:55:11,839
again the chill and then he looked me in

1404
00:55:18,309 --> 00:55:14,240
the eyes and he said and i'll never

1405
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:20,710
you're cured

1406
00:55:25,349 --> 00:55:23,280
and within days uh the pain of course

1407
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:25,359
diminished almost immediately took it

1408
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:27,200
took about a day and a half

1409
00:55:32,549 --> 00:55:30,720
the strength uh uh returned ultimately i

1410
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:32,559
was cured i was back to doctoring and

1411
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:33,680
surfing

1412
00:55:36,870 --> 00:55:34,960
and uh

1413
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:36,880
left with the mystery of

1414
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,040
how the hell did that happen which is

1415
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:41,839
the question how do you understand that

1416
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:43,359
experience

1417
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:45,280
yeah well so

1418
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:47,119
as as you know

1419
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:48,720
that happened to me

1420
00:55:54,549 --> 00:55:51,760
at the same time i was uh

1421
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:54,559
dear and deep friends with uh

1422
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:57,200
a taoist uh priest

1423
00:56:00,309 --> 00:55:58,880
uh who was a

1424
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:00,319
energy healer

1425
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:02,559
and so i shared cases with him work with

1426
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:05,119
him and i saw things i saw healing that

1427
00:56:09,589 --> 00:56:06,799
he was able to do

1428
00:56:11,910 --> 00:56:09,599
like on a non-union of the scaphoid bone

1429
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:11,920
that had been broken and not healed for

1430
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:14,240
two years i followed her with x-ray he

1431
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:16,400
worked on it three or four times

1432
00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:18,799
and it healed just by virtue it seemed

1433
00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:25,510
and then i had all the mysteries that

1434
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:27,520
were manifesting in front of me in the

1435
00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:30,000
emergency department without trance i

1436
00:56:35,270 --> 00:56:33,119
was going at a fast pace and commanding

1437
00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:35,280
effects and they were actually happening

1438
00:56:39,670 --> 00:56:37,280
commanding them using subtle hypnotic

1439
00:56:42,309 --> 00:56:39,680
language but nonetheless

1440
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:42,319
and so i had uh

1441
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:45,119
these all these mysteries in addition i

1442
00:56:49,670 --> 00:56:47,280
was reading the hypnosis literature and

1443
00:56:51,910 --> 00:56:49,680
there was this curious thing

1444
00:56:55,109 --> 00:56:51,920
some groups had decided they were going

1445
00:56:56,829 --> 00:56:55,119
to treat migraines by having people turn

1446
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:56,839
their hands

1447
00:57:02,150 --> 00:56:59,520
hot uh

1448
00:57:04,230 --> 00:57:02,160
often these guys would induce a trance

1449
00:57:05,670 --> 00:57:04,240
so to speak and say okay your hand will

1450
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:05,680
heat up and they measure with the

1451
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:08,079
thermostat go up a few degrees and the

1452
00:57:11,589 --> 00:57:09,839
migraine would disappear

1453
00:57:14,230 --> 00:57:11,599
but there were other groups that were

1454
00:57:16,309 --> 00:57:14,240
saying no keep your hand cold and the

1455
00:57:18,549 --> 00:57:16,319
temperature of the hand would go down

1456
00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:18,559
and the migraine would disappear

1457
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:20,559
so i was left with this

1458
00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:24,319
this broad palate of confusion where it

1459
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:28,480
appeared as if everything was working

1460
00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:32,400
but what the hell is the common element

1461
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:35,440
and that became clear to me when i

1462
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:37,680
disentangled

1463
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:41,040
trans from hypnosis and realize that

1464
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:42,880
trance is just an effect just like

1465
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:44,559
stopping bleeding normalizing heart

1466
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:47,680
rhythm relaxing a birth canal those are

1467
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:50,079
effects that you command when you have

1468
00:57:54,110 --> 00:57:52,720
hypnotic influence the hypnotic

1469
00:57:55,589 --> 00:57:54,120
influence comes from

1470
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:55,599
[Music]

1471
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:57,200
the authority but remember there's a

1472
00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:58,559
precondition

1473
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:01,680
what was i in that jungle in the middle

1474
00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:04,640
of a place i couldn't walk out of alone

1475
00:58:08,710 --> 00:58:07,520
right with a disease i couldn't fix by

1476
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:08,720
myself

1477
00:58:15,670 --> 00:58:12,960
i was the perfect helpless and dependent

1478
00:58:18,789 --> 00:58:15,680
prototype and that brujo

1479
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:18,799
swirling in his ayahuasca haze that guy

1480
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:20,720
was my authority

1481
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:21,520
right

1482
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:26,000
and same in the hypnosis and same with

1483
00:58:31,349 --> 00:58:28,400
you you name it any of the therapeutic

1484
00:58:32,630 --> 00:58:31,359
rituals conducted around the world and i

1485
00:58:34,150 --> 00:58:32,640
realized

1486
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:34,160
that they're all

1487
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:38,400
offering either implicitly or explicitly

1488
00:58:43,829 --> 00:58:41,040
the same suggestion

1489
00:58:47,589 --> 00:58:43,839
it's the exact same idea as being

1490
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:47,599
conveyed and actualized in all of our

1491
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:48,799
healing

1492
00:58:54,870 --> 00:58:51,760
rituals since time immemorial and here's

1493
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:54,880
what it is it's the simplest idea

1494
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:57,280
if you do

1495
00:59:00,870 --> 00:58:59,200
the intervention

1496
00:59:03,589 --> 00:59:00,880
whatever it is

1497
00:59:06,150 --> 00:59:03,599
let me blow on you icicles in the neck

1498
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:06,160
right let me manipulate your spine crack

1499
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:07,280
crack crack

1500
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:08,240
let me

1501
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:10,079
have you sit on the couch and agree on

1502
00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:12,480
the meaning of your past let me do this

1503
00:59:17,349 --> 00:59:14,559
surgery let me give you this pill let me

1504
00:59:20,069 --> 00:59:17,359
subject you to the doesn't matter if you

1505
00:59:21,190 --> 00:59:20,079
submit to the intervention

1506
00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:21,200
x

1507
00:59:25,030 --> 00:59:23,200
which has to be credible that's that's

1508
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:25,040
the one thing it's got to be credible if

1509
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:28,240
you submit to that then the prescribed

1510
00:59:32,789 --> 00:59:30,640
outcome will occur

1511
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:32,799
and i call that the generic placebo

1512
00:59:39,030 --> 00:59:34,880
suggestion

1513
00:59:41,109 --> 00:59:39,040
not is implied

1514
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:41,119
when the patient walks through the door

1515
00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:43,760
and your authority your rapport and your

1516
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:47,760
linkage will drive that to actualization

1517
00:59:53,910 --> 00:59:50,400
so be careful what you prescribe

1518
00:59:55,829 --> 00:59:53,920
prescribe a cure not a curse

1519
00:59:58,309 --> 00:59:55,839
that was absolutely awesome and you just

1520
01:00:01,270 --> 00:59:58,319
laid out the secret sauce here's the big

1521
01:00:02,789 --> 01:00:01,280
question it's the question of agency

1522
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:02,799
right it's like

1523
01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:05,359
with you one thousand percent

1524
01:00:09,589 --> 01:00:07,680
we're all connected from this

1525
01:00:12,549 --> 01:00:09,599
consciousness

1526
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:12,559
global connection and somehow you're

1527
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:14,720
able to get in there and do that

1528
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:16,799
but did that shaman

1529
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:18,160
was there

1530
01:00:22,789 --> 01:00:20,640
agency there and the other thing that we

1531
01:00:24,069 --> 01:00:22,799
have as evidence that you're bringing

1532
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:24,079
you brought through in the story so it's

1533
01:00:28,150 --> 01:00:25,760
not like you're afraid to face any of

1534
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:28,160
this stuff you're the opposite of that

1535
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:30,079
but he did know you're coming two hours

1536
01:00:35,910 --> 01:00:33,520
before he was outside of space-time

1537
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:35,920
and we hear over and over again from all

1538
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:37,680
these different

1539
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,680
sources who people who've looked at this

1540
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,760
extended consciousness realm

1541
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:43,680
that maybe there's some other going

1542
01:00:49,349 --> 01:00:46,480
on so how are you processing that like i

1543
01:00:51,990 --> 01:00:49,359
get that you got the secret sauce and it

1544
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:52,000
works so freaking effectively and we

1545
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:53,680
should change the whole world and the

1546
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:56,160
whole medical system there is no doubt i

1547
01:01:01,910 --> 01:00:58,799
don't say that cynically or facetiously

1548
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:01,920
absolutely but what about backdrop thing

1549
01:01:06,309 --> 01:01:04,480
what's really going on there this guy

1550
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:06,319
is able to do some stuff and it does

1551
01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:08,079
have to do with this extended

1552
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:09,280
consciousness realm that we don't

1553
01:01:13,030 --> 01:01:10,720
understand

1554
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:13,040
well first i'd say that people who read

1555
01:01:17,910 --> 01:01:16,160
about uh ayahuasca effects

1556
01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:17,920
and write about them

1557
01:01:23,190 --> 01:01:21,119
uh talk about this all the time right

1558
01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:23,200
these brujos know you're coming they

1559
01:01:28,870 --> 01:01:26,160
understand within the the bounds usually

1560
01:01:31,190 --> 01:01:28,880
of their uh territory which can be

1561
01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:31,200
extensive they know what's going on they

1562
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:32,160
know where

1563
01:01:36,950 --> 01:01:34,559
the jaguars are let's say

1564
01:01:40,549 --> 01:01:36,960
steve they know how to make ayahuasca

1565
01:01:43,349 --> 01:01:40,559
they have access to 15 000

1566
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:43,359
herbs medicines compounds in their

1567
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:45,760
jungle and they know

1568
01:01:51,510 --> 01:01:48,400
how to select one that is this

1569
01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:51,520
dmt if i cook it this way and this other

1570
01:01:56,309 --> 01:01:54,160
which is this dmt inhibitor and then if

1571
01:01:58,390 --> 01:01:56,319
i cook it just i mean and then you ask

1572
01:02:00,390 --> 01:01:58,400
them how do you know that and they say

1573
01:02:02,630 --> 01:02:00,400
oh well the spirit guides came and told

1574
01:02:04,309 --> 01:02:02,640
us go over here find this point now do

1575
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:04,319
this yeah you're doing it right right i

1576
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:05,200
mean

1577
01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:07,520
no i i it's

1578
01:02:12,470 --> 01:02:10,079
this is commonly reported throughout the

1579
01:02:14,789 --> 01:02:12,480
entire amazon basin and elsewhere where

1580
01:02:16,069 --> 01:02:14,799
shamans work in other places with other

1581
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:16,079
medications

1582
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:19,280
let's say to go back to what you quoted

1583
01:02:23,510 --> 01:02:22,000
this is one of the

1584
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:23,520
paradigm

1585
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:24,880
induced

1586
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:26,960
anomalies that break with the

1587
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:29,680
paradigm-induced expectations of our

1588
01:02:33,190 --> 01:02:31,200
current model

1589
01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:33,200
and so we have to

1590
01:02:37,510 --> 01:02:35,920
i think at the very least acknowledge

1591
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:37,520
that it exists

1592
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:39,920
and realize that because it exists it

1593
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:41,520
calls either

1594
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:43,920
for the abandonment of our current

1595
01:02:48,549 --> 01:02:45,839
paradigm which i don't think anyone is

1596
01:02:51,990 --> 01:02:48,559
seriously advocating or for the

1597
01:02:52,870 --> 01:02:52,000
expansion of that paradigm so that we

1598
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:52,880
can

1599
01:02:59,030 --> 01:02:56,319
uh embrace assume these various

1600
01:03:00,789 --> 01:02:59,040
anecdotes facts

1601
01:03:01,910 --> 01:03:00,799
and make sense of them

1602
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:01,920
now

1603
01:03:06,230 --> 01:03:03,839
how the shaman

1604
01:03:08,390 --> 01:03:06,240
himself does that

1605
01:03:10,870 --> 01:03:08,400
i can't uh

1606
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:10,880
pretend to to know

1607
01:03:17,349 --> 01:03:14,000
because i haven't had a

1608
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:17,359
direct experience like that with respect

1609
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:20,160
to strangers right strangers coming into

1610
01:03:24,710 --> 01:03:22,559
my territory and sensing them i actually

1611
01:03:26,069 --> 01:03:24,720
may have had that and not known it i

1612
01:03:28,630 --> 01:03:26,079
don't know you know whatever's

1613
01:03:31,829 --> 01:03:28,640
unconscious is unconscious but what i

1614
01:03:35,589 --> 01:03:31,839
can tell you and what i think uh bears

1615
01:03:38,230 --> 01:03:35,599
in some way on on this perhaps heavily

1616
01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:38,240
is that all the way back to mesmer

1617
01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:39,760
himself

1618
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:42,960
people doing hypnosis have realized that

1619
01:03:46,950 --> 01:03:45,200
there's a connection far beyond words

1620
01:03:49,750 --> 01:03:46,960
that goes on between

1621
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,760
the operator and the subject

1622
01:03:53,029 --> 01:03:51,839
for me i'll tell you the first time that

1623
01:03:55,029 --> 01:03:53,039
happened

1624
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:55,039
because it was a little stunning but it

1625
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:56,960
happens now in the office every day and

1626
01:04:02,470 --> 01:03:59,920
it's just a business as usual thing i

1627
01:04:05,029 --> 01:04:02,480
was uh early in my career and i was

1628
01:04:07,029 --> 01:04:05,039
using a metaphor to deepen a trance and

1629
01:04:10,549 --> 01:04:07,039
i had a leaf

1630
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:10,559
break off and gently flowed down it was

1631
01:04:15,910 --> 01:04:13,119
rocking deeper and deeper down and as it

1632
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:15,920
went down it was slowing until it rested

1633
01:04:20,710 --> 01:04:18,880
deeply safely on the surface of the sea

1634
01:04:22,549 --> 01:04:20,720
something like that right some

1635
01:04:23,670 --> 01:04:22,559
metaphorical suggestion for trance

1636
01:04:26,069 --> 01:04:23,680
deepening

1637
01:04:27,430 --> 01:04:26,079
and things went well in the session

1638
01:04:30,470 --> 01:04:27,440
patient woke up

1639
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:30,480
and he said uh after some talk hey doc

1640
01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:32,079
you know that leaf you were talking

1641
01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:32,960
about

1642
01:04:37,990 --> 01:04:35,680
yeah yeah he says uh i saw that way

1643
01:04:38,789 --> 01:04:38,000
before you even mentioned it

1644
01:04:40,470 --> 01:04:38,799
right

1645
01:04:42,470 --> 01:04:40,480
that's characteristic

1646
01:04:44,549 --> 01:04:42,480
right if you're doing hypnosis and

1647
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:44,559
you're not familiar with experiences

1648
01:04:48,069 --> 01:04:46,000
like that

1649
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:48,079
probably you're not listening because it

1650
01:04:51,510 --> 01:04:50,240
that happens all the time

1651
01:04:52,950 --> 01:04:51,520
um

1652
01:04:55,829 --> 01:04:52,960
i could give you

1653
01:04:57,190 --> 01:04:55,839
i'm sure at least a thousand similar

1654
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:57,200
anecdotes

1655
01:05:03,349 --> 01:05:01,119
and i what happens in hypnosis is

1656
01:05:05,029 --> 01:05:03,359
you have these two patterns no matter

1657
01:05:06,069 --> 01:05:05,039
what going on you have the authority

1658
01:05:08,870 --> 01:05:06,079
pattern

1659
01:05:11,029 --> 01:05:08,880
trance enhances your authority so people

1660
01:05:12,309 --> 01:05:11,039
in trance are more likely to identify

1661
01:05:14,150 --> 01:05:12,319
with you

1662
01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:14,160
meaning your reality becomes their

1663
01:05:17,190 --> 01:05:15,280
reality

1664
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:17,200
but also rapport

1665
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:19,440
and rapport is this pattern of sameness

1666
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:22,559
i equals you where you know my breathing

1667
01:05:28,069 --> 01:05:23,280
my

1668
01:05:31,109 --> 01:05:28,079
begin to

1669
01:05:32,069 --> 01:05:31,119
line up and as people align with each

1670
01:05:35,109 --> 01:05:32,079
other

1671
01:05:36,549 --> 01:05:35,119
uh let's say externally

1672
01:05:39,029 --> 01:05:36,559
it's clear to me that internal

1673
01:05:41,029 --> 01:05:39,039
alignments occur as well

1674
01:05:44,069 --> 01:05:41,039
and that makes sense because think about

1675
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:44,079
it your external let's say i'm imitating

1676
01:05:49,190 --> 01:05:46,960
your posture right now okay well that

1677
01:05:51,750 --> 01:05:49,200
tells you that there are brain

1678
01:05:53,270 --> 01:05:51,760
configurations that are in some way or

1679
01:05:55,470 --> 01:05:53,280
other identical

1680
01:05:57,109 --> 01:05:55,480
and we know that those brain

1681
01:05:59,029 --> 01:05:57,119
configurations

1682
01:06:01,510 --> 01:05:59,039
give off a certain electromagnetic

1683
01:06:05,270 --> 01:06:01,520
pattern which we can pick up to some

1684
01:06:07,510 --> 01:06:05,280
limited degree with eeg right

1685
01:06:08,789 --> 01:06:07,520
so this alignment that you and i are

1686
01:06:10,789 --> 01:06:08,799
sharing

1687
01:06:12,870 --> 01:06:10,799
is also manifest

1688
01:06:15,349 --> 01:06:12,880
i don't think anyone can really doubt

1689
01:06:16,870 --> 01:06:15,359
this it's manifest and whatever the

1690
01:06:19,829 --> 01:06:16,880
electromagnetic

1691
01:06:22,069 --> 01:06:19,839
uh signals are coming off

1692
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:22,079
are aligned brains in that moment of

1693
01:06:27,270 --> 01:06:24,240
sameness

1694
01:06:28,549 --> 01:06:27,280
somehow that must bear on this the these

1695
01:06:30,470 --> 01:06:28,559
facts

1696
01:06:32,870 --> 01:06:30,480
exactly how

1697
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:32,880
i don't think we we've gotten to a point

1698
01:06:36,390 --> 01:06:34,720
certainly not with uh paranormal

1699
01:06:39,029 --> 01:06:36,400
experimentation i don't think we've

1700
01:06:41,829 --> 01:06:39,039
gotten to a point where we can satisfy

1701
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:41,839
ourselves that we have a scientific

1702
01:06:47,190 --> 01:06:44,720
explanation for it but it it begins with

1703
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:47,200
acknowledgement of the anomalies

1704
01:06:50,390 --> 01:06:49,119
and therefore the need to expand our

1705
01:06:52,230 --> 01:06:50,400
paradigm

1706
01:06:53,990 --> 01:06:52,240
yeah definitely i would

1707
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:54,000
definitely agree and i think that you

1708
01:06:57,109 --> 01:06:55,039
know

1709
01:06:58,710 --> 01:06:57,119
this whole consciousness thing

1710
01:07:01,510 --> 01:06:58,720
what i

1711
01:07:04,309 --> 01:07:01,520
the my mantra is that what science has

1712
01:07:07,109 --> 01:07:04,319
done in its exploration of consciousness

1713
01:07:09,270 --> 01:07:07,119
is really obsoleted itself because it's

1714
01:07:10,950 --> 01:07:09,280
come to the point of saying hey look

1715
01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:10,960
what we discovered we discovered we

1716
01:07:15,829 --> 01:07:13,280
can't really measure anything

1717
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:15,839
anything we measure has a big asterisk

1718
01:07:19,430 --> 01:07:17,520
by it which is

1719
01:07:22,309 --> 01:07:19,440
consciousness was at play here we're not

1720
01:07:24,470 --> 01:07:22,319
sure how we're not sure why and i love

1721
01:07:26,870 --> 01:07:24,480
your expanded

1722
01:07:28,630 --> 01:07:26,880
kind of understanding of that like our

1723
01:07:32,309 --> 01:07:28,640
knowledge is not

1724
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:32,319
wrong always it just is incomplete

1725
01:07:36,150 --> 01:07:34,640
let me add to kind of the story the leaf

1726
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:36,160
story i love

1727
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:38,640
have you ever heard of the story of dr

1728
01:07:44,150 --> 01:07:40,240
michael newton you know the guy who's

1729
01:07:45,430 --> 01:07:44,160
famous for the past life in between life

1730
01:07:46,789 --> 01:07:45,440
regressions

1731
01:07:48,230 --> 01:07:46,799
do you know that the first time he

1732
01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:48,240
encountered that

1733
01:07:51,190 --> 01:07:49,119
no

1734
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:51,200
oh you're gonna love this i love being

1735
01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:54,079
able to share this with you

1736
01:07:58,710 --> 01:07:56,640
he's a hypnotherapist this is probably

1737
01:08:01,430 --> 01:07:58,720
back in the 70s i want to say that he's

1738
01:08:03,589 --> 01:08:01,440
doing this so he's doing you know

1739
01:08:05,510 --> 01:08:03,599
the lady comes in i'm afraid of spiders

1740
01:08:07,029 --> 01:08:05,520
okay let me take you back oh i was two

1741
01:08:08,789 --> 01:08:07,039
years old your mom freaked out because

1742
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:08,799
there was a spider calling

1743
01:08:12,950 --> 01:08:10,480
we fix it you walk out you're not afraid

1744
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:12,960
of spiders okay next next next

1745
01:08:17,269 --> 01:08:15,520
gets a tough case man this guy he's got

1746
01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:17,279
a problem with his shoulder his arm and

1747
01:08:21,189 --> 01:08:19,279
he just can't he's going to the doctors

1748
01:08:22,550 --> 01:08:21,199
the doctors give up on him say we don't

1749
01:08:25,189 --> 01:08:22,560
know what's wrong with it so in your

1750
01:08:26,950 --> 01:08:25,199
head go see this guy michael newton

1751
01:08:29,269 --> 01:08:26,960
same thing okay let's tell him okay you

1752
01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:29,279
go back go back go back

1753
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:31,600
it's stubborn it won't work

1754
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:34,560
okay go back further he goes oh wait a

1755
01:08:36,829 --> 01:08:35,679
minute

1756
01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:36,839
i'm on a

1757
01:08:41,910 --> 01:08:39,520
battlefield as a matter of fact i see

1758
01:08:44,550 --> 01:08:41,920
now oh my god he's gonna hit me with

1759
01:08:45,829 --> 01:08:44,560
that bayonet the bayonet goes right into

1760
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:45,839
my shoulder

1761
01:08:49,510 --> 01:08:48,159
well michael newton is fascinated he

1762
01:08:51,669 --> 01:08:49,520
happens to be

1763
01:08:54,149 --> 01:08:51,679
like an amateur

1764
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:54,159
historian particularly interested in war

1765
01:08:57,269 --> 01:08:55,920
so he kind of breaks protocol a little

1766
01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:57,279
bit and says

1767
01:09:00,630 --> 01:08:58,080
hey

1768
01:09:03,189 --> 01:09:00,640
what insignia are you wearing you know

1769
01:09:05,189 --> 01:09:03,199
once it gets some details about it

1770
01:09:07,030 --> 01:09:05,199
goes and researches it later because

1771
01:09:07,829 --> 01:09:07,040
he's just so fascinating because like

1772
01:09:09,749 --> 01:09:07,839
you

1773
01:09:11,510 --> 01:09:09,759
i mean like a really trained

1774
01:09:13,590 --> 01:09:11,520
hypnotherapist who's done thousands and

1775
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:13,600
thousands of these he recognizes that

1776
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:14,960
something different has happened here

1777
01:09:20,229 --> 01:09:17,520
but it's within the realm of you know

1778
01:09:23,630 --> 01:09:20,239
legitimate and all the other ways

1779
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:23,640
this begins his whole

1780
01:09:31,030 --> 01:09:27,359
experimentation exploration of past life

1781
01:09:33,749 --> 01:09:31,040
regressions and hypnotherapy and

1782
01:09:35,749 --> 01:09:33,759
adding to this is the guy comes back and

1783
01:09:38,070 --> 01:09:35,759
his shoulder is

1784
01:09:39,510 --> 01:09:38,080
resolved in some way they work through

1785
01:09:43,669 --> 01:09:39,520
it and that's that's and he does the

1786
01:09:45,990 --> 01:09:43,679
research on the guy and finds all this

1787
01:09:48,630 --> 01:09:46,000
evidence to back up it kind of supports

1788
01:09:51,829 --> 01:09:48,640
it so you don't have to

1789
01:09:52,950 --> 01:09:51,839
uh buy into all that uh especially since

1790
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:52,960
i'm telling you a story for the first

1791
01:09:58,630 --> 01:09:55,280
time but i do think

1792
01:10:02,709 --> 01:09:58,640
it speaks to the leaf thing it's like

1793
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:02,719
we're entering into this realm here of

1794
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,480
extended consciousness that you're

1795
01:10:08,870 --> 01:10:06,960
entering into and there's all sorts of

1796
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:08,880
stuff that can happen do you have any

1797
01:10:13,270 --> 01:10:11,600
any thoughts on that well i do so i i

1798
01:10:17,830 --> 01:10:13,280
first let me say i don't have any

1799
01:10:20,630 --> 01:10:17,840
expertise and past life regression um so

1800
01:10:22,070 --> 01:10:20,640
i'm seeing this through through my lens

1801
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:22,080
and i'm uh

1802
01:10:27,030 --> 01:10:24,960
i'm i'm open to that but look at what

1803
01:10:28,149 --> 01:10:27,040
what i've laid out already and and what

1804
01:10:30,390 --> 01:10:28,159
we know

1805
01:10:32,310 --> 01:10:30,400
if you think of the generic placebo

1806
01:10:36,310 --> 01:10:32,320
suggestion let me say it again in a sort

1807
01:10:39,350 --> 01:10:36,320
of abstract structure if you submit to x

1808
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:39,360
the intervention then y

1809
01:10:43,030 --> 01:10:42,159
the prescribed outcome will occur

1810
01:10:45,990 --> 01:10:43,040
okay

1811
01:10:48,149 --> 01:10:46,000
x has to be credible at the outset

1812
01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:48,159
somewhat difficult to achieve

1813
01:10:53,189 --> 01:10:50,880
but achievable and then credible upon

1814
01:10:55,110 --> 01:10:53,199
completion in other words before during

1815
01:10:57,270 --> 01:10:55,120
and after

1816
01:11:00,790 --> 01:10:57,280
it can't the intervention can't be

1817
01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:00,800
something that diminishes the authority

1818
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:02,880
it's got to be something fully credible

1819
01:11:06,310 --> 01:11:04,080
all the way through

1820
01:11:08,550 --> 01:11:06,320
and when that is true

1821
01:11:09,669 --> 01:11:08,560
then why the prescribed outcome will

1822
01:11:10,630 --> 01:11:09,679
occur

1823
01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:10,640
okay

1824
01:11:15,990 --> 01:11:13,920
so now i deal with this all all the time

1825
01:11:17,110 --> 01:11:16,000
in a slightly different connection

1826
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:17,120
um

1827
01:11:20,790 --> 01:11:18,560
let me give you the illustration with

1828
01:11:23,189 --> 01:11:20,800
phobias because that's where uh you sort

1829
01:11:25,590 --> 01:11:23,199
of trailed into it so i don't treat

1830
01:11:26,709 --> 01:11:25,600
phobias with regression i've never

1831
01:11:29,590 --> 01:11:26,719
have to

1832
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:29,600
seriously knock wood here i've i've i've

1833
01:11:32,550 --> 01:11:30,400
never

1834
01:11:35,110 --> 01:11:32,560
to my knowledge failed at treating a

1835
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:35,120
phobia usually in a single session

1836
01:11:39,270 --> 01:11:37,280
i use the technique that uh

1837
01:11:42,550 --> 01:11:39,280
with some modification that john grinder

1838
01:11:44,790 --> 01:11:42,560
taught me in 1985 it's it works

1839
01:11:46,310 --> 01:11:44,800
i have a wonderful friend in europe

1840
01:11:49,750 --> 01:11:46,320
norbert preetz

1841
01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:49,760
great hypnotherapist who only does

1842
01:11:55,910 --> 01:11:52,719
regression therapy for the treatment

1843
01:11:58,709 --> 01:11:55,920
of phobias and he's been on national tv

1844
01:12:00,790 --> 01:11:58,719
14 times doing spiders and snakes and

1845
01:12:02,950 --> 01:12:00,800
hornets and you name it

1846
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:02,960
um

1847
01:12:06,229 --> 01:12:05,440
my if x

1848
01:12:08,870 --> 01:12:06,239
okay

1849
01:12:11,350 --> 01:12:08,880
my intervention is

1850
01:12:13,110 --> 01:12:11,360
you know a dissociation look at a screen

1851
01:12:16,950 --> 01:12:13,120
play it backwards forward black and

1852
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:16,960
white color uh reunite and blah blah

1853
01:12:20,870 --> 01:12:19,840
blah so that x is credible credible

1854
01:12:23,669 --> 01:12:20,880
credible

1855
01:12:26,470 --> 01:12:23,679
and i'm the authority haven't failed

1856
01:12:28,390 --> 01:12:26,480
feeling good about it so why your phobia

1857
01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:28,400
will be gone happens

1858
01:12:34,390 --> 01:12:31,040
the same thing is true of norbert he

1859
01:12:37,189 --> 01:12:34,400
exudes confidence he's never failed he

1860
01:12:39,830 --> 01:12:37,199
does if x his x is this regression to

1861
01:12:42,390 --> 01:12:39,840
something that may or may not be real

1862
01:12:44,470 --> 01:12:42,400
but it's certainly the experience is

1863
01:12:46,790 --> 01:12:44,480
real no matter what

1864
01:12:49,590 --> 01:12:46,800
and so because it doesn't in any way

1865
01:12:51,990 --> 01:12:49,600
diminishes authority in the doing why

1866
01:12:54,310 --> 01:12:52,000
also happens right

1867
01:12:57,110 --> 01:12:54,320
this global

1868
01:12:59,910 --> 01:12:57,120
generic placebo effect

1869
01:13:01,510 --> 01:12:59,920
is present in all of these things so to

1870
01:13:04,149 --> 01:13:01,520
me when i hear that

1871
01:13:05,510 --> 01:13:04,159
the question is outside of the placebo

1872
01:13:08,870 --> 01:13:05,520
effect which would have gotten this

1873
01:13:10,550 --> 01:13:08,880
guy's shoulder well no matter what

1874
01:13:13,830 --> 01:13:10,560
what's the intrinsic value of the

1875
01:13:16,070 --> 01:13:13,840
discovery is it real what's the science

1876
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:16,080
what do we have to enlarge conceptually

1877
01:13:20,870 --> 01:13:18,320
in order to grasp this so that's kind of

1878
01:13:22,709 --> 01:13:20,880
how i approach those things i would say

1879
01:13:23,990 --> 01:13:22,719
let me add one thing

1880
01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:24,000
the uh

1881
01:13:29,590 --> 01:13:27,040
this is again this is uh

1882
01:13:31,990 --> 01:13:29,600
i i think wherever you go with this this

1883
01:13:34,390 --> 01:13:32,000
is one element that's so essential and

1884
01:13:36,709 --> 01:13:34,400
so important and caregiving it can't it

1885
01:13:39,830 --> 01:13:36,719
can't be omitted

1886
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:39,840
because there is clearly this connection

1887
01:13:44,390 --> 01:13:42,239
right once you're in authority once your

1888
01:13:46,870 --> 01:13:44,400
patient is identifying with you once the

1889
01:13:48,630 --> 01:13:46,880
rapport is established

1890
01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:48,640
you not only

1891
01:13:55,830 --> 01:13:52,080
don't get a pass on haphazard speech

1892
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:55,840
you don't get a pass on haphazard think

1893
01:13:59,430 --> 01:13:57,840
you have to be very careful what you

1894
01:14:01,510 --> 01:13:59,440
think before you go in the room and this

1895
01:14:04,390 --> 01:14:01,520
is what i teach in my advanced course if

1896
01:14:05,990 --> 01:14:04,400
you can't go in that room with curative

1897
01:14:08,709 --> 01:14:06,000
intent

1898
01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:08,719
you're not the guy take a pass get let

1899
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:10,800
someone else go in that room

1900
01:14:14,950 --> 01:14:11,920
because

1901
01:14:17,590 --> 01:14:14,960
we know through the science of nonverbal

1902
01:14:19,669 --> 01:14:17,600
communication these micro expressions

1903
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:19,679
are going to tip your hat anyway

1904
01:14:23,910 --> 01:14:21,440
but what you and i alex are talking

1905
01:14:25,750 --> 01:14:23,920
about is something deeper and more

1906
01:14:27,030 --> 01:14:25,760
i think

1907
01:14:30,149 --> 01:14:27,040
complete

1908
01:14:33,430 --> 01:14:30,159
uh than simple micro expressions and

1909
01:14:35,590 --> 01:14:33,440
those two in my view get picked up and

1910
01:14:38,229 --> 01:14:35,600
if you're walking in that room saying

1911
01:14:40,310 --> 01:14:38,239
man this guy is dead i can i just hope i

1912
01:14:42,870 --> 01:14:40,320
can keep him somewhat comfortable you're

1913
01:14:45,510 --> 01:14:42,880
the wrong person it was wrong

1914
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:45,520
hey i love it i love the compassion is

1915
01:14:51,830 --> 01:14:48,480
not enough toughness and especially when

1916
01:14:53,270 --> 01:14:51,840
it's coming from this total caregiver

1917
01:14:54,950 --> 01:14:53,280
kind of thing

1918
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:54,960
that you're all about

1919
01:14:59,669 --> 01:14:57,520
my thing is really

1920
01:15:01,990 --> 01:14:59,679
who are we why are we here so i'm

1921
01:15:04,229 --> 01:15:02,000
interested in all of that i'm interested

1922
01:15:06,229 --> 01:15:04,239
in operationalizing and implementing

1923
01:15:06,950 --> 01:15:06,239
what you're doing but man i want to

1924
01:15:13,510 --> 01:15:06,960
know

1925
01:15:17,430 --> 01:15:13,520
what part of that reality i need to

1926
01:15:19,830 --> 01:15:17,440
incorporate into my thomas paradigm

1927
01:15:22,310 --> 01:15:19,840
collapsing kind of thing and i i think

1928
01:15:25,669 --> 01:15:22,320
you do too you're just kind of picking

1929
01:15:27,910 --> 01:15:25,679
your your lane and you got a huge

1930
01:15:30,390 --> 01:15:27,920
to mix metaphors you got a huge

1931
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:30,400
field to plow there and you just got to

1932
01:15:33,830 --> 01:15:31,920
get on it so

1933
01:15:35,110 --> 01:15:33,840
no difference in that i tell you where i

1934
01:15:36,709 --> 01:15:35,120
want to go in the little bit of time

1935
01:15:38,630 --> 01:15:36,719
that we have left

1936
01:15:40,390 --> 01:15:38,640
in the book healing beyond pills and

1937
01:15:43,510 --> 01:15:40,400
potions you

1938
01:15:45,030 --> 01:15:43,520
tell stories about some of your failures

1939
01:15:45,910 --> 01:15:45,040
some of what we can learn from some of

1940
01:15:49,030 --> 01:15:45,920
that

1941
01:15:50,709 --> 01:15:49,040
i love the story about scott who

1942
01:15:53,430 --> 01:15:50,719
you're just a little bit too upfront

1943
01:15:54,790 --> 01:15:53,440
with because i think it leads us into

1944
01:15:57,270 --> 01:15:54,800
naturally

1945
01:15:59,590 --> 01:15:57,280
maybe an interesting discussion about

1946
01:16:01,830 --> 01:15:59,600
some of the nefarious uses

1947
01:16:03,350 --> 01:16:01,840
for this whether we want to uh whether

1948
01:16:06,950 --> 01:16:03,360
we want to go there or not somebody else

1949
01:16:10,390 --> 01:16:06,960
will but tell us about scott he's a guy

1950
01:16:13,590 --> 01:16:10,400
who i i i know somewhat he's a physician

1951
01:16:15,270 --> 01:16:13,600
in the community actually and uh he came

1952
01:16:16,390 --> 01:16:15,280
into the office

1953
01:16:18,709 --> 01:16:16,400
um

1954
01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:18,719
and said uh

1955
01:16:23,990 --> 01:16:21,920
life sucks i hate my practice i hate my

1956
01:16:26,630 --> 01:16:24,000
patients i hate myself

1957
01:16:28,550 --> 01:16:26,640
i hate my wife i hate this i hate that

1958
01:16:30,550 --> 01:16:28,560
and i remember feeling like because i

1959
01:16:33,270 --> 01:16:30,560
don't use that word very often i that's

1960
01:16:35,110 --> 01:16:33,280
that's a word i like to reserve

1961
01:16:38,229 --> 01:16:35,120
and i remember feeling somewhat

1962
01:16:40,870 --> 01:16:38,239
assaulted and almost uh dirtied by this

1963
01:16:43,669 --> 01:16:40,880
onslaught of hate speech which you know

1964
01:16:44,790 --> 01:16:43,679
i rarely experience in an often office

1965
01:16:48,390 --> 01:16:44,800
setting

1966
01:16:50,229 --> 01:16:48,400
um and so the the question that i had

1967
01:16:52,310 --> 01:16:50,239
was okay well what's the

1968
01:16:53,830 --> 01:16:52,320
the source of this and as you know in

1969
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:53,840
the last part of the book i talk about

1970
01:17:00,470 --> 01:16:57,440
common causes of uh

1971
01:17:03,350 --> 01:17:00,480
common noetic meaning mental causes of

1972
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:03,360
human illness and one of the very common

1973
01:17:08,189 --> 01:17:07,199
causes is a sort of retained past its

1974
01:17:10,070 --> 01:17:08,199
time

1975
01:17:12,709 --> 01:17:10,080
identification with

1976
01:17:15,270 --> 01:17:12,719
a primary parent

1977
01:17:18,149 --> 01:17:15,280
mother or father

1978
01:17:20,390 --> 01:17:18,159
uh the identification teaches us how to

1979
01:17:24,470 --> 01:17:20,400
relate to the world how to find and

1980
01:17:27,030 --> 01:17:24,480
relate dynamically to a spouse and also

1981
01:17:30,390 --> 01:17:27,040
the most neglected aspect is how to

1982
01:17:32,229 --> 01:17:30,400
relate to ourselves and so you know if

1983
01:17:34,470 --> 01:17:32,239
you have a father saying who you

1984
01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:34,480
identified with as a child and he's a

1985
01:17:38,550 --> 01:17:37,040
cheerful optimistic loving guy

1986
01:17:40,709 --> 01:17:38,560
you pick that up

1987
01:17:43,430 --> 01:17:40,719
and that's that's in you until you

1988
01:17:45,189 --> 01:17:43,440
dis-identify and you you may still

1989
01:17:46,310 --> 01:17:45,199
having cut the cord may still want to

1990
01:17:48,390 --> 01:17:46,320
retain

1991
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:48,400
certain aspects of of that

1992
01:17:53,030 --> 01:17:51,199
identification that serve you well so i

1993
01:17:55,669 --> 01:17:53,040
was exploring this with him

1994
01:17:58,630 --> 01:17:55,679
and when i got to okay well so

1995
01:18:00,550 --> 01:17:58,640
uh tell me about your dad um

1996
01:18:02,470 --> 01:18:00,560
how is he with the world

1997
01:18:04,070 --> 01:18:02,480
oh everybody loved him he was a pillar

1998
01:18:06,070 --> 01:18:04,080
of the community wherever we went we

1999
01:18:08,470 --> 01:18:06,080
didn't have to pay well i knew that this

2000
01:18:12,070 --> 01:18:08,480
guy was the same kind of guy

2001
01:18:14,229 --> 01:18:12,080
he he operated in the world the same way

2002
01:18:17,350 --> 01:18:14,239
how was your dad with his wife

2003
01:18:19,189 --> 01:18:17,360
oh he despicable you know he won every

2004
01:18:22,310 --> 01:18:19,199
argument he put her down he had an open

2005
01:18:25,669 --> 01:18:22,320
affair well i knew that this guy

2006
01:18:29,189 --> 01:18:25,679
was behaving similarly

2007
01:18:31,350 --> 01:18:29,199
now we get to part three how is your dad

2008
01:18:33,110 --> 01:18:31,360
toward himself what was his

2009
01:18:35,590 --> 01:18:33,120
how did he view himself you know what do

2010
01:18:37,910 --> 01:18:35,600
you think he found he hated himself he

2011
01:18:40,310 --> 01:18:37,920
hated his office he hated his patients

2012
01:18:42,310 --> 01:18:40,320
he hated what he did it

2013
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:42,320
there it was right

2014
01:18:48,630 --> 01:18:46,320
so now i see the ideology of his

2015
01:18:49,590 --> 01:18:48,640
unhappiness his discontent

2016
01:18:53,590 --> 01:18:49,600
is

2017
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:53,600
father

2018
01:18:58,709 --> 01:18:56,880
and i made the mistake you know okay

2019
01:19:01,110 --> 01:18:58,719
now i know that

2020
01:19:02,630 --> 01:19:01,120
but as i as i said in the book catharsis

2021
01:19:04,550 --> 01:19:02,640
is not pure

2022
01:19:07,350 --> 01:19:04,560
and anyone who thinks it is i'm sorry

2023
01:19:09,990 --> 01:19:07,360
you're wrong it may be for one or two

2024
01:19:12,310 --> 01:19:10,000
percent but it's not for the human heard

2025
01:19:14,870 --> 01:19:12,320
generally speaking

2026
01:19:16,950 --> 01:19:14,880
and yet it was so blatant so apparent so

2027
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:16,960
right in front of us that i just blurted

2028
01:19:20,310 --> 01:19:18,239
it out there

2029
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:20,320
and he and he responded perfectly

2030
01:19:25,830 --> 01:19:24,000
everything you'd want i get it yeah okay

2031
01:19:29,110 --> 01:19:25,840
a week later

2032
01:19:29,990 --> 01:19:29,120
he wasn't better in any way

2033
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:30,000
and

2034
01:19:34,870 --> 01:19:32,880
he said something uh this was out in

2035
01:19:37,110 --> 01:19:34,880
town some casual

2036
01:19:39,270 --> 01:19:37,120
bump in and he said oh i remember

2037
01:19:41,430 --> 01:19:39,280
everything we said it was about honesty

2038
01:19:44,270 --> 01:19:41,440
hadn't even mentioned the word honesty

2039
01:19:47,030 --> 01:19:44,280
but the wall of denial had come down the

2040
01:19:48,630 --> 01:19:47,040
rationalization had come up and i was a

2041
01:19:50,149 --> 01:19:48,640
total failure

2042
01:19:51,910 --> 01:19:50,159
um

2043
01:19:54,470 --> 01:19:51,920
fortunately he came back and i got to

2044
01:19:56,630 --> 01:19:54,480
redo it and address it uh in a more

2045
01:19:58,229 --> 01:19:56,640
subtle and unconscious way tell us a

2046
01:20:00,709 --> 01:19:58,239
little bit from what you remember how

2047
01:20:03,510 --> 01:20:00,719
you did it differently

2048
01:20:04,950 --> 01:20:03,520
well differently is assume at the outset

2049
01:20:06,950 --> 01:20:04,960
that if he could have fixed it

2050
01:20:08,950 --> 01:20:06,960
consciously he would have and of course

2051
01:20:10,950 --> 01:20:08,960
we have evidence of that so this isn't

2052
01:20:11,830 --> 01:20:10,960
going to be a conscious cure

2053
01:20:14,310 --> 01:20:11,840
right

2054
01:20:16,550 --> 01:20:14,320
so i often in in the office setting i'll

2055
01:20:18,709 --> 01:20:16,560
use trance i'm not in a er with a white

2056
01:20:20,709 --> 01:20:18,719
coat and stethoscope i'll induce a

2057
01:20:24,149 --> 01:20:20,719
chance to augment

2058
01:20:26,790 --> 01:20:24,159
my authority and then i'll often tell

2059
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:26,800
stories that's kind of kind of devolved

2060
01:20:30,149 --> 01:20:27,920
into

2061
01:20:33,270 --> 01:20:30,159
an ericssonian type guy

2062
01:20:34,390 --> 01:20:33,280
and so i'll tell a story about

2063
01:20:36,790 --> 01:20:34,400
um

2064
01:20:39,510 --> 01:20:36,800
you know a kid who's on a raft

2065
01:20:41,510 --> 01:20:39,520
and the raft is on a slow-moving river

2066
01:20:42,630 --> 01:20:41,520
and the current takes him along and he's

2067
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:42,640
happy

2068
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:44,880
and i'm cutting this way short when he

2069
01:20:48,709 --> 01:20:46,560
wants to swim he

2070
01:20:50,550 --> 01:20:48,719
he jumps off the raft swims around it's

2071
01:20:52,870 --> 01:20:50,560
not moving so fast he can't catch up

2072
01:20:55,910 --> 01:20:52,880
with it but just for safety's sake he's

2073
01:20:58,310 --> 01:20:55,920
got a cord wrapped around his waist

2074
01:21:00,630 --> 01:20:58,320
later as time goes on years past he

2075
01:21:02,709 --> 01:21:00,640
finds himself in a deep ravine the river

2076
01:21:04,630 --> 01:21:02,719
is narrow the current is pulling him

2077
01:21:06,149 --> 01:21:04,640
there's a roar and a rush and there's

2078
01:21:08,709 --> 01:21:06,159
danger ahead

2079
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:08,719
and he realizes that time on the raft is

2080
01:21:11,590 --> 01:21:09,840
over

2081
01:21:13,990 --> 01:21:11,600
and he's got to jump and he jumps and

2082
01:21:17,189 --> 01:21:14,000
swims and he's making for a beach when

2083
01:21:20,790 --> 01:21:17,199
suddenly there's tuck and he realizes

2084
01:21:23,669 --> 01:21:20,800
i'm in trouble i have not cut this cord

2085
01:21:26,550 --> 01:21:23,679
and he reaches in his pocket and finds

2086
01:21:31,270 --> 01:21:26,560
the implement he needs and cuts not one

2087
01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:31,280
not two but all three fibers of the cord

2088
01:21:34,630 --> 01:21:33,760
and the wrath goes taken taken where it

2089
01:21:36,950 --> 01:21:34,640
goes

2090
01:21:39,350 --> 01:21:36,960
and he swims and finally makes the beach

2091
01:21:41,030 --> 01:21:39,360
but that's not the end of it

2092
01:21:42,950 --> 01:21:41,040
he's got to climb the cliff he's got to

2093
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:42,960
make some choices he's out there on this

2094
01:21:47,590 --> 01:21:45,679
vast plane of options and opportunities

2095
01:21:49,510 --> 01:21:47,600
where there's no current

2096
01:21:51,430 --> 01:21:49,520
where each choice is a simple

2097
01:21:54,390 --> 01:21:51,440
independent choice for health and

2098
01:21:56,550 --> 01:21:54,400
happiness so a metaphor like that is

2099
01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:56,560
introduced and i expect that to work

2100
01:22:00,229 --> 01:21:58,880
gradually over two or three weeks and

2101
01:22:02,709 --> 01:22:00,239
see changes

2102
01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:02,719
and i'll give other suggestions as well

2103
01:22:07,750 --> 01:22:05,600
for you know uh what a healthy choice

2104
01:22:09,830 --> 01:22:07,760
might be and what an unhealthy choice

2105
01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:09,840
might be and so forth but at the end of

2106
01:22:14,470 --> 01:22:11,760
the day three or four five sessions

2107
01:22:17,189 --> 01:22:14,480
later there's a very different person

2108
01:22:18,870 --> 01:22:17,199
and here's the sad thing to note

2109
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:18,880
so many of us

2110
01:22:22,790 --> 01:22:21,600
have failed to disidentify in our in our

2111
01:22:25,189 --> 01:22:22,800
late years

2112
01:22:29,830 --> 01:22:25,199
and that current is still pulling us

2113
01:22:32,229 --> 01:22:29,840
over a cascade that leads to sadness and

2114
01:22:36,310 --> 01:22:32,239
unhappiness and when that cord gets cut

2115
01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:36,320
and healthy choices are are made

2116
01:22:41,030 --> 01:22:38,960
everything changes the body changes the

2117
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:41,040
mind changes and you become who you're

2118
01:22:45,910 --> 01:22:43,679
meant to be your your best you

2119
01:22:46,790 --> 01:22:45,920
it's an awesome story

2120
01:22:48,950 --> 01:22:46,800
the

2121
01:22:51,510 --> 01:22:48,960
tough part for me

2122
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:51,520
is the implication for

2123
01:22:55,430 --> 01:22:53,600
those who would choose to use the

2124
01:22:57,669 --> 01:22:55,440
science this art

2125
01:23:01,750 --> 01:22:57,679
this whatever we're going to call it

2126
01:23:03,430 --> 01:23:01,760
for nefarious purposes and just like the

2127
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:03,440
treatments or interventions that you're

2128
01:23:07,189 --> 01:23:05,199
doing are multifaceted and i loved

2129
01:23:08,790 --> 01:23:07,199
before you know there's so many

2130
01:23:10,149 --> 01:23:08,800
subtleties to what you're saying here

2131
01:23:11,350 --> 01:23:10,159
and there's so many lessons to pull out

2132
01:23:13,430 --> 01:23:11,360
of this and people really have to pick

2133
01:23:15,590 --> 01:23:13,440
up the book and go to the website and

2134
01:23:16,950 --> 01:23:15,600
and study it more to get all this but

2135
01:23:19,750 --> 01:23:16,960
like you're talking about

2136
01:23:21,669 --> 01:23:19,760
your one friend who uses regression

2137
01:23:23,669 --> 01:23:21,679
for handling the same kind of issues and

2138
01:23:25,189 --> 01:23:23,679
you handle them in a very different way

2139
01:23:26,390 --> 01:23:25,199
and they're both successful because

2140
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:26,400
they're both

2141
01:23:31,030 --> 01:23:29,280
getting at something that we're still

2142
01:23:32,709 --> 01:23:31,040
trying to understand and you're open

2143
01:23:33,910 --> 01:23:32,719
about trying to understand that but in

2144
01:23:35,110 --> 01:23:33,920
trying to understand that we have to

2145
01:23:37,110 --> 01:23:35,120
understand that there are people who are

2146
01:23:39,189 --> 01:23:37,120
using this for

2147
01:23:42,390 --> 01:23:39,199
evil intent you know to be direct there

2148
01:23:45,350 --> 01:23:42,400
is a guy sitting in a cell 30 miles from

2149
01:23:48,229 --> 01:23:45,360
us south his name is sirhan sirhan

2150
01:23:51,030 --> 01:23:48,239
and he was mind controlled manchurian

2151
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:51,040
candidate and the guy who they say

2152
01:23:53,830 --> 01:23:52,639
killed robert f kennedy didn't kill

2153
01:23:55,750 --> 01:23:53,840
robert f kennedy he had a gun in his

2154
01:23:57,430 --> 01:23:55,760
hand he shot one bullet but

2155
01:23:59,030 --> 01:23:57,440
like i told the story many times they

2156
01:24:00,870 --> 01:23:59,040
found more bullets

2157
01:24:03,110 --> 01:24:00,880
in the kitchen where they shot that

2158
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:03,120
there was in his gun so it's obviously

2159
01:24:06,229 --> 01:24:05,199
not that it's all this other stuff

2160
01:24:10,310 --> 01:24:06,239
but

2161
01:24:13,910 --> 01:24:10,320
that was the technology circa 1960

2162
01:24:15,430 --> 01:24:13,920
they had a guy whoever that guy was who

2163
01:24:17,510 --> 01:24:15,440
could

2164
01:24:19,830 --> 01:24:17,520
massage that consciousness i don't want

2165
01:24:21,910 --> 01:24:19,840
to say because whatever i say

2166
01:24:23,669 --> 01:24:21,920
it has is out of ignorance put them in a

2167
01:24:25,430 --> 01:24:23,679
trance well we don't know if that was it

2168
01:24:27,830 --> 01:24:25,440
program we don't know if that was it

2169
01:24:30,709 --> 01:24:27,840
induce you know whatever but something

2170
01:24:33,030 --> 01:24:30,719
happened that you know

2171
01:24:34,950 --> 01:24:33,040
and if that's the technology if that's

2172
01:24:39,270 --> 01:24:34,960
the state of the art

2173
01:24:41,350 --> 01:24:39,280
now

2174
01:24:44,229 --> 01:24:41,360
well it is let me let me march into that

2175
01:24:46,470 --> 01:24:44,239
from sort of what's going on every day

2176
01:24:48,950 --> 01:24:46,480
inadvertently to what you're talking

2177
01:24:52,709 --> 01:24:48,960
about which is the real malevolence and

2178
01:24:55,350 --> 01:24:52,719
misu use of this technology remember

2179
01:24:57,030 --> 01:24:55,360
what i'm saying is is basically that

2180
01:24:59,750 --> 01:24:57,040
hypnosis is

2181
01:25:02,470 --> 01:24:59,760
ideas driven by these patterns authority

2182
01:25:04,310 --> 01:25:02,480
being chief among them ideas evoking

2183
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:04,320
responses right

2184
01:25:09,030 --> 01:25:06,719
and um

2185
01:25:13,350 --> 01:25:09,040
doctors and other authorities police

2186
01:25:15,430 --> 01:25:13,360
officers uh teachers they're not taught

2187
01:25:16,950 --> 01:25:15,440
the power of their authority and the

2188
01:25:19,750 --> 01:25:16,960
influence they have and so

2189
01:25:22,709 --> 01:25:19,760
they inevitably misspeak and the harm we

2190
01:25:24,830 --> 01:25:22,719
see and denote as nocebo effects is

2191
01:25:29,110 --> 01:25:24,840
going on all the time every day

2192
01:25:30,950 --> 01:25:29,120
inadvertently so you know my

2193
01:25:33,270 --> 01:25:30,960
mission is to do

2194
01:25:35,270 --> 01:25:33,280
as much as possible to rectify that

2195
01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:35,280
particular situation

2196
01:25:40,070 --> 01:25:38,000
but listen so that's the precondition

2197
01:25:42,709 --> 01:25:40,080
the condition is the authority must be

2198
01:25:43,750 --> 01:25:42,719
the one is recognized by the helpless

2199
01:25:45,430 --> 01:25:43,760
subject

2200
01:25:49,189 --> 01:25:45,440
must be the one who's

2201
01:25:51,510 --> 01:25:49,199
least uncertain they cannot show doubt

2202
01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:51,520
and bear that in mind because we just

2203
01:25:55,350 --> 01:25:54,000
had an extraordinary

2204
01:25:58,950 --> 01:25:55,360
uh

2205
01:25:59,910 --> 01:25:58,960
exhibition of this thing gone completely

2206
01:26:01,590 --> 01:25:59,920
wrong

2207
01:26:04,390 --> 01:26:01,600
you can you can

2208
01:26:05,590 --> 01:26:04,400
look to any demagogue anywhere in the

2209
01:26:07,669 --> 01:26:05,600
world

2210
01:26:09,189 --> 01:26:07,679
for example i'm just going to take this

2211
01:26:10,550 --> 01:26:09,199
briefly because i'd rather move to the

2212
01:26:13,110 --> 01:26:10,560
health sphere

2213
01:26:15,990 --> 01:26:13,120
and what you'll see is the first thing

2214
01:26:18,070 --> 01:26:16,000
they do instinctively is they create

2215
01:26:20,870 --> 01:26:18,080
conditions of helplessness and

2216
01:26:22,950 --> 01:26:20,880
dependency on the part of the populace

2217
01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:22,960
it's american carnage

2218
01:26:29,350 --> 01:26:23,920
it's

2219
01:26:31,030 --> 01:26:29,360
it doesn't matter what it is you have to

2220
01:26:33,750 --> 01:26:31,040
create this sense of helplessness and

2221
01:26:37,030 --> 01:26:33,760
dependency and then you rise to the

2222
01:26:39,110 --> 01:26:37,040
authority by never advancing an ounce in

2223
01:26:41,910 --> 01:26:39,120
iota of doubt

2224
01:26:43,669 --> 01:26:41,920
you're the one least uncertain and so

2225
01:26:47,669 --> 01:26:43,679
you become the authority and what

2226
01:26:50,790 --> 01:26:47,679
happens is the ideas of the authority

2227
01:26:52,550 --> 01:26:50,800
autonomously enter the psyche of the

2228
01:26:55,590 --> 01:26:52,560
subject

2229
01:26:58,149 --> 01:26:55,600
without the influence of will or reason

2230
01:27:00,709 --> 01:26:58,159
this is what happens and you so i have

2231
01:27:03,270 --> 01:27:00,719
my wife watching tv saying

2232
01:27:05,750 --> 01:27:03,280
how can they believe that don't they see

2233
01:27:08,550 --> 01:27:05,760
all the evidence and i keep saying this

2234
01:27:11,350 --> 01:27:08,560
has nothing to do with will or reason

2235
01:27:12,470 --> 01:27:11,360
this went in below and it sustains you

2236
01:27:15,830 --> 01:27:12,480
know

2237
01:27:19,350 --> 01:27:15,840
so think of the medical application

2238
01:27:21,030 --> 01:27:19,360
we all witness this suddenly there's a

2239
01:27:23,669 --> 01:27:21,040
scourge

2240
01:27:26,629 --> 01:27:23,679
and it can take you down no matter how

2241
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:26,639
healthy you are this is the original and

2242
01:27:31,590 --> 01:27:29,600
and we have no cure for it and we've got

2243
01:27:33,669 --> 01:27:31,600
to lock down the economy and isolate

2244
01:27:36,950 --> 01:27:33,679
ourselves and houses and people are

2245
01:27:39,669 --> 01:27:36,960
dying in droves what that does true or

2246
01:27:41,350 --> 01:27:39,679
false what that does is that creates the

2247
01:27:44,070 --> 01:27:41,360
precondition

2248
01:27:46,149 --> 01:27:44,080
for an authority the one least

2249
01:27:49,110 --> 01:27:46,159
uncertain least down

2250
01:27:52,709 --> 01:27:49,120
to emerge and who emerges but somebody

2251
01:27:56,470 --> 01:27:54,390
i am science

2252
01:28:00,310 --> 01:27:56,480
i speak for science

2253
01:28:02,470 --> 01:28:00,320
what i say is a scientific fact and

2254
01:28:04,709 --> 01:28:02,480
whether you agree with him or not what

2255
01:28:07,110 --> 01:28:04,719
i'm saying is

2256
01:28:08,550 --> 01:28:07,120
that condition

2257
01:28:11,430 --> 01:28:08,560
is just

2258
01:28:12,790 --> 01:28:11,440
taking my office micro

2259
01:28:15,270 --> 01:28:12,800
microcosm

2260
01:28:17,750 --> 01:28:15,280
and turning it into a macrocosmic

2261
01:28:21,189 --> 01:28:17,760
example of the authority pattern of

2262
01:28:23,189 --> 01:28:21,199
ideas evoking responses and this is the

2263
01:28:25,750 --> 01:28:23,199
malevolent application of this

2264
01:28:27,510 --> 01:28:25,760
technology yeah awesome

2265
01:28:29,910 --> 01:28:27,520
you know steve a final point and i

2266
01:28:32,709 --> 01:28:29,920
thought this was just amazing and you

2267
01:28:34,709 --> 01:28:32,719
could you could dedicate your

2268
01:28:36,790 --> 01:28:34,719
life's work to this as well and it'd be

2269
01:28:38,870 --> 01:28:36,800
very very fruitful it's in the appendix

2270
01:28:40,950 --> 01:28:38,880
of the book but you talk about

2271
01:28:43,189 --> 01:28:40,960
kind of i don't want to say reimagine

2272
01:28:44,870 --> 01:28:43,199
isn't the right word but you talk about

2273
01:28:47,030 --> 01:28:44,880
rethinking

2274
01:28:48,870 --> 01:28:47,040
scientific experiments

2275
01:28:50,550 --> 01:28:48,880
and what we think about in terms of the

2276
01:28:52,709 --> 01:28:50,560
controls and the protocols that we're

2277
01:28:55,189 --> 01:28:52,719
using and how we might be

2278
01:28:58,149 --> 01:28:55,199
just invalidating our results from the

2279
01:29:00,470 --> 01:28:58,159
outset again when we get down to the

2280
01:29:02,790 --> 01:29:00,480
language that we communicate and the

2281
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:02,800
language that we internalize and i

2282
01:29:05,910 --> 01:29:04,320
thought that was just

2283
01:29:08,550 --> 01:29:05,920
stunning in terms of when you really

2284
01:29:10,870 --> 01:29:08,560
think about the implications of that for

2285
01:29:12,709 --> 01:29:10,880
honest quote-unquote honest scientists

2286
01:29:14,470 --> 01:29:12,719
who are trying to make discoveries do

2287
01:29:16,870 --> 01:29:14,480
you want to speak to explain to people

2288
01:29:19,910 --> 01:29:16,880
what i'm talking about and speak to that

2289
01:29:21,430 --> 01:29:19,920
well so uh first i i want to thank you

2290
01:29:24,790 --> 01:29:21,440
for reading the appendix i don't know

2291
01:29:26,950 --> 01:29:24,800
how many people do i'm very uh impressed

2292
01:29:29,910 --> 01:29:26,960
and uh it means a lot and i hope the

2293
01:29:31,189 --> 01:29:29,920
listeners out there uh spend some time

2294
01:29:33,669 --> 01:29:31,199
on that because

2295
01:29:36,550 --> 01:29:33,679
i do put a lot of thought into

2296
01:29:38,550 --> 01:29:36,560
what experiments uh can be done in the

2297
01:29:41,110 --> 01:29:38,560
future to solidify

2298
01:29:44,390 --> 01:29:41,120
the evidentiary base of what i'm talking

2299
01:29:47,910 --> 01:29:44,400
about and also what kind of training

2300
01:29:50,629 --> 01:29:47,920
we can introduce into uh

2301
01:29:52,149 --> 01:29:50,639
caregiver training so that people learn

2302
01:29:53,110 --> 01:29:52,159
the power of their words and how to use

2303
01:29:54,229 --> 01:29:53,120
them

2304
01:29:57,350 --> 01:29:54,239
properly

2305
01:29:58,550 --> 01:29:57,360
well what i'd say to that

2306
01:30:00,629 --> 01:29:58,560
is that

2307
01:30:04,070 --> 01:30:00,639
we we need to understand that the

2308
01:30:07,750 --> 01:30:04,080
generic placebo suggestion is present

2309
01:30:09,510 --> 01:30:07,760
and operative in everything we do

2310
01:30:10,950 --> 01:30:09,520
and so if we

2311
01:30:12,229 --> 01:30:10,960
if we do

2312
01:30:14,950 --> 01:30:12,239
a study

2313
01:30:16,390 --> 01:30:14,960
and there are words delivered to

2314
01:30:19,669 --> 01:30:16,400
patients

2315
01:30:21,270 --> 01:30:19,679
and you get certain outcomes

2316
01:30:24,310 --> 01:30:21,280
i as a reader

2317
01:30:26,870 --> 01:30:24,320
and you as a reader have every right to

2318
01:30:28,709 --> 01:30:26,880
ask well before i make any judgments

2319
01:30:30,629 --> 01:30:28,719
about what happened here

2320
01:30:33,110 --> 01:30:30,639
please tell me exactly what you told

2321
01:30:36,070 --> 01:30:33,120
these patients because you have a

2322
01:30:37,030 --> 01:30:36,080
hypnotic influence on the outcome

2323
01:30:37,830 --> 01:30:37,040
right

2324
01:30:39,910 --> 01:30:37,840
and

2325
01:30:42,390 --> 01:30:39,920
they'll say oh well it's double blinded

2326
01:30:45,189 --> 01:30:42,400
well that doesn't matter what matters is

2327
01:30:48,229 --> 01:30:45,199
remember in the expression if x then why

2328
01:30:50,870 --> 01:30:48,239
the why what did you promise what was

2329
01:30:52,229 --> 01:30:50,880
the prescribed outcome because you're

2330
01:30:54,709 --> 01:30:52,239
the authority that's what's going to

2331
01:30:56,629 --> 01:30:54,719
happen whether it's blinded or not

2332
01:30:58,470 --> 01:30:56,639
yeah that's stunning and i think the

2333
01:31:01,270 --> 01:30:58,480
implications go even further and i know

2334
01:31:03,510 --> 01:31:01,280
you do too it's not just in experiments

2335
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:03,520
where we're communicating to patients

2336
01:31:09,110 --> 01:31:06,000
and let me see exactly it's our internal

2337
01:31:11,189 --> 01:31:09,120
communication it's our you know deciding

2338
01:31:13,830 --> 01:31:11,199
on the protocols and how we set up and

2339
01:31:16,629 --> 01:31:13,840
the questions we ask drive the answers

2340
01:31:19,510 --> 01:31:16,639
we get and all that is

2341
01:31:22,790 --> 01:31:19,520
needs to take into account

2342
01:31:24,790 --> 01:31:22,800
healing beyond pills and potions core

2343
01:31:26,709 --> 01:31:24,800
principles for helpers and healers as

2344
01:31:29,590 --> 01:31:26,719
we've talked about with today's amazing

2345
01:31:31,430 --> 01:31:29,600
guest dr steve biermann you will get a

2346
01:31:33,990 --> 01:31:31,440
book that is

2347
01:31:35,669 --> 01:31:34,000
very very much written for healers and

2348
01:31:37,510 --> 01:31:35,679
helpers for health care professionals

2349
01:31:39,910 --> 01:31:37,520
and they definitely need to read this

2350
01:31:42,790 --> 01:31:39,920
but so many of

2351
01:31:44,790 --> 01:31:42,800
you me kind of people will really get a

2352
01:31:46,550 --> 01:31:44,800
lot out of this a lot of just amazing

2353
01:31:48,189 --> 01:31:46,560
stories and then you can check out the

2354
01:31:49,750 --> 01:31:48,199
website too

2355
01:31:52,070 --> 01:31:49,760
healingbeyondpills.com

2356
01:31:54,629 --> 01:31:52,080
and a lot of great stuff there

2357
01:31:58,229 --> 01:31:54,639
steve how is this how is this going for

2358
01:31:59,590 --> 01:31:58,239
you and what other stuff are you up to

2359
01:32:01,990 --> 01:31:59,600
well so

2360
01:32:04,550 --> 01:32:02,000
thanks so much for asking alex the book

2361
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:04,560
actually is is doing uh quite well i've

2362
01:32:10,070 --> 01:32:06,560
won i think three

2363
01:32:12,229 --> 01:32:10,080
uh literary awards and uh it's getting

2364
01:32:13,350 --> 01:32:12,239
in the right hands i'm happy to say that

2365
01:32:15,669 --> 01:32:13,360
many of the

2366
01:32:17,430 --> 01:32:15,679
key opinion leaders in the family

2367
01:32:20,550 --> 01:32:17,440
practice movement family medicine

2368
01:32:23,350 --> 01:32:20,560
movement in the united states uh are

2369
01:32:26,950 --> 01:32:23,360
reading it responding to it i'm

2370
01:32:31,270 --> 01:32:26,960
speaking at a plenary session of 1200

2371
01:32:33,590 --> 01:32:31,280
family doctors later in uh september

2372
01:32:35,830 --> 01:32:33,600
and so uh

2373
01:32:37,830 --> 01:32:35,840
programs are beginning to incorporate

2374
01:32:39,669 --> 01:32:37,840
still in the early stage but

2375
01:32:42,390 --> 01:32:39,679
it's it's having an impact and i hope

2376
01:32:43,830 --> 01:32:42,400
it'll have a much deeper uh impact as

2377
01:32:46,629 --> 01:32:43,840
days go on

2378
01:32:49,430 --> 01:32:46,639
i'm teaching around the world i teach uh

2379
01:32:51,189 --> 01:32:49,440
multiple courses uh here in san diego

2380
01:32:53,110 --> 01:32:51,199
and elsewhere in the us

2381
01:32:54,070 --> 01:32:53,120
uh and then i teach in europe and maine

2382
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:54,080
and

2383
01:32:59,590 --> 01:32:55,920
uh june

2384
01:33:01,910 --> 01:32:59,600
and plan on continuing that for uh

2385
01:33:03,669 --> 01:33:01,920
well into well into the future

2386
01:33:05,590 --> 01:33:03,679
i'm also working on

2387
01:33:07,669 --> 01:33:05,600
uh we didn't get to it but

2388
01:33:09,830 --> 01:33:07,679
the next book which is the next obvious

2389
01:33:10,709 --> 01:33:09,840
book it's entitled cures

2390
01:33:14,070 --> 01:33:10,719
and

2391
01:33:16,229 --> 01:33:14,080
it talks about how the ideas of patients

2392
01:33:18,629 --> 01:33:16,239
which you can excavate with a single

2393
01:33:21,189 --> 01:33:18,639
question how the ideas of patients

2394
01:33:23,910 --> 01:33:21,199
contribute to their illness and once you

2395
01:33:25,350 --> 01:33:23,920
know what those contributory ideas are

2396
01:33:28,070 --> 01:33:25,360
they tend to fall out in certain

2397
01:33:29,030 --> 01:33:28,080
categories how to treat those categories

2398
01:33:31,030 --> 01:33:29,040
so

2399
01:33:33,030 --> 01:33:31,040
i'm very excited about that i'm probably

2400
01:33:35,189 --> 01:33:33,040
two years away from uh

2401
01:33:38,229 --> 01:33:35,199
finishing but what i hope to do is

2402
01:33:40,550 --> 01:33:38,239
create modules where one by one

2403
01:33:43,110 --> 01:33:40,560
caregivers of all stripes can learn how

2404
01:33:46,070 --> 01:33:43,120
to ask that single question

2405
01:33:48,550 --> 01:33:46,080
mine for causes and then

2406
01:33:51,750 --> 01:33:48,560
treat with curative intent so that

2407
01:33:53,990 --> 01:33:51,760
people don't have you know what i call

2408
01:33:56,709 --> 01:33:54,000
blonde beginnings and endless endings

2409
01:33:59,110 --> 01:33:56,719
instead they have a single solitary cure

2410
01:34:01,910 --> 01:33:59,120
and get on with their life

2411
01:34:03,270 --> 01:34:01,920
awesome fantastic stuff again thanks so

2412
01:34:04,950 --> 01:34:03,280
much for coming

2413
01:34:06,870 --> 01:34:04,960
oh thank you i really enjoyed it you're

2414
01:34:09,270 --> 01:34:06,880
great thanks again to steve biermann for

2415
01:34:11,270 --> 01:34:09,280
joining me today on skeptico the one

2416
01:34:12,709 --> 01:34:11,280
question i'd have to tee up from this

2417
01:34:15,270 --> 01:34:12,719
interview and it's

2418
01:34:18,149 --> 01:34:15,280
really the only question it's the level

2419
01:34:21,110 --> 01:34:18,159
one entry point question is do you

2420
01:34:23,030 --> 01:34:21,120
believe him do you believe he did what

2421
01:34:24,390 --> 01:34:23,040
he said he did

2422
01:34:27,270 --> 01:34:24,400
in the er

2423
01:34:30,070 --> 01:34:27,280
because if you do like i do

2424
01:34:31,910 --> 01:34:30,080
then we got something to talk about

2425
01:34:34,629 --> 01:34:31,920
let me know your thoughts on that always

2426
01:34:37,189 --> 01:34:34,639
love to hear from you even if it gets a

2427
01:34:38,950 --> 01:34:37,199
little bit contentious

2428
01:34:41,430 --> 01:34:38,960
we always learn something from each

2429
01:34:43,750 --> 01:34:41,440
other so let me know what you think

2430
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:43,760
until next time take care